How can Lion-O still be the nice guy?

Cartoons ThunderCats (2011)
81

See, Tygra_Rules, you’re only proving my earlier point true. Not to start an online war or anything, but you Tygra fans keep trying make Tygra look like the innocent party by making it sound like everything that happened to Lion-O, even the events of the Spirit Stone story arc, were Lion-O’s own fault. Completely ignoring the fact that Tygra was at fault in certain areas as well.

Tygra claimed that he was more mature than Lion-O, but personally, i find that hard to believe. If Tygra was more mature, than humility wouldn’t be such a problem for him, Tiger Pride or not. Yes he was (for the most part) the better fighter, but if he was really the mature one, he wouldn’t be rubbing it in Lion-O’s face. If Lion-O ever rubbed anything in Tygra’s face, it was probably just his way of paying his stuck up brother back.

Worst of all, Cheetara doesn’t even seem to mind the level of pain Lion-O has gone through, no one does. Yet he’s probably expected to show unyielding compassion to all of them. In “Recipe for Disaster”, Tygra basically made a callback to Lion-O’s earlier heartbreak and Cheetara just blew it off and practically agreed with him.

True, Tygra did say that it meant alot to hear Lion-O say that he was happy for him and Cheetara, but that was right after he insulted Lion-O’s act of mercy. In fact, Lion-O only took his anger out on Cheetara and basically ignored Tygra.

Furthermore, Panthro once said that it wasn’t his place to question his King’s orders, only to follow them, yet all he ever does is question Lion-O’s orders. Yet, surprisingly, he never questioned any of Tygra’s and followed them to a T. How is that fair?

Finally, my biggest problem is that Tygra will probably start a family with Cheetara while Lion-O is left with basically nothing. So he has power, big whoop, that alone can make a person grow cold and detatched.

82

That is not completely true about no one caring about Lion-o’s pain because Wily Kit did in the last episode plus she never lost faith that he would some how survive his fall(in the trials episodes) and come and save them. But most of your other points seem valid.

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  1. Yeah, we do. It was episode 17. Title was Native Son and the plot was poorly crafted to make everyone feel sorry for Tygra - it didn’t work.
  2. That might be what you think but that’s not what is true.
  3. Exactly. because Tygra worked so hard so shame Lion-O and make himself look the better, everyone figured he was. Again, in series during the Trial, the exchange between Lion-O and Spirit Tygra shows Lion-O still doubts himself because of Tygra’s actions growing up.
  4. Nope, nothing wrong with a son wanting to prove himself to his father. There is something wrong with one son doing everything they can to emptionally, mentally, and physically tear down the other son and that’s what Tygra spent his days doing to Lion-O. A son shouldn’t have to “show off” to get their fathers attention. If anything, it was Lion-O finally realizing ‘what’s the point’ and not trying so hard after 16/17 years of being told he wasn’t as good as Tygra. Producers and writers had no clue what they wanted, that is why Thundercats was such an all over the place mess.
  5. Really? You might want to go and re-watch the pilot episode.

Srebak is right about you; here you are jumping through hoops trying to spin what was shown in series to make your favorite character look innocent when he was far from it.

Sorry but Tygra is far from innocent.

In my opinion, he was a bigger and more constant threat to the New Series Thundercats than Mumm-Ra was.

84

I get yopur point srebak, and it’s not my intention either to start an online war; in fact, I like that wer can exchange opinions in a mature way :wink:

I’m not denying Tygra’s responsibility in all this (note that I say “responsibility”, not “guitl” as I don’t blame him neither Lion-o); I’m just saying he’s not the only one, not even Claudus. Fraternal relationships need two, and I don’t think Lion-o was the poor innocent victim in all this. That’s all.

As how mature Tygra was, he was only 19 while Lion-o 17; that’s not a huge, significative difference IMO.

1.I meant to say we never got a clue on how early Tygra learnt about him being abandoned. Yes, in Native Son the story weas told, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have learnt the fact earlier in life. Obviously, he knew he wasn’t the cub of two lions.
2. Not false either. Lion-o also despised Tygra and made him bad about himself, and put the finger where it hurt the most for a long while; Cheetara and the crwon.
3 & 4. There’s nothing wrong in Tygra working hard to prove him better than Lion-o. The real problem is Lion.o didn’t do the same. It’s Lion-o’s fault not Tygra’s. A son nwill always try to prove himself to his father.
5. Well, maybe once or twice, but again, Lion-o did as well.

If I’m jumping on hops, so are you because hte truth is, only writers know where they wanted to go.

Look, I’m not saying Tygra was “innocent” (I wouldn’t use that word when talking about relationships, but let’s use it this time), all I’m saying is he wasn’t the only -or even the biggest- responsible; Lion-o has his share as well.

Now, if you (plura "you"l,not singular, as not directed at you specifically ;)) want to think he was the victim here, then go ahead.

Peace.

85

All i’m saying is Life seems to be real a nightmare for Lion-O half the time, while Tygra’s life always seems to work out in certain areas and seems to have much less strife when compared to Lion-O’s. And honestly, given their personalities, that really doesn’t seem fair.

True, maybe Lion-O should have taken his Princely duties more seriously (it’s hard for me to find justification for that), but should he really be punished nonstop for that? Tygra did take his duties seriously, but even to this day, he’s still no better than the basic stereotype of the Cats: he’s bigoted, he’s racist, i still think that if he was in charge when Mumm-Ra attacked, nothing would’ve changed.

Tygra basically committed treason during “Between Brothers” yet after one last-minute act of kindness, all is forgiven and he’s even rewarded at the end. However, nearly every single one of Lion-O’s actions has been to help those around him, yet here he is, with nothing to show for it. What does he have: a group that is only following him because he’s the last remnant of the Royal family, no city to rule, no loved one to help him through these troubled times, he doesn’t even have a happier life to look back on, from the looks of it, his childhood was just as bad.

But does anyone give a darn or show anything resembling sympathy, no. I wouldn’t be surprised if Lion-O said that he wishes he was never born. No one ever spoke to Claudus like this, nor has any ever called Tygra out on anything. I ask you, how is that fair?

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But not only the Cats follow Lion-o. It’s pretty clear by the end that the other animals have grown to respect him and will follow his leadership.

As for Tygra, nobody can say he has had a good life himself: abandonment, loss of his mother, his father only liking him because he didn’t fail (I’m sure Tygra didn’t DARE to fail to keep Claudus’ good concept of him; in “Native Son”, it seemed to me Claudus wasn’t as sure as his wife to keep Tygra, and in the flashbacks it seemed to me Jaga never really liked him, so he might have had the admiration of the people, but not of the ones that really mattered and that’s why he tried so hard. JMO of course.)

And finally, we don’t know how Prince Claudus was when preparing to become a king, but I can bet he took it more seriously than Lion-o.

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I do not know how anyone can read this thread without wondering whether they are being trolled.

I would say, “Some posters need to get Lion-O off the proverbial cross because others need the wood,” if he was not literally being compared with Jesus in some posts.

It is absurd.

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To make my point of view simple:

Everyone faces hardships. Lion-O was dealt some that were made more extreme by the fact that he was the main character. Tygra added to this by being a jerk, but was not the cause of them. By making Lion-O face a lot of hardships, the made him easier to relate to him, but it wasn’t like he was the only one who had issues. It seems as if there are two sides; one who thinks Tygra was a perfect god with no problems, and another that tries to sugarcoat every problem and blame it on some circumstance.

89

I just have to get all of this out in the open.

I recently watched part of “Into the Astral Plane” and after doing so, my feelings regarding Lion-O and Tygra have started to shift.

Since the Reboot first came out, i’ve been a Lion-O fan, partly because i didn’t like the way he was treated and thought he deserved better. Which, I think stemmed from my own past of being teased and treated without respect. Respect may be something that is earned, but does that fact give anyone the right to treat someone else like dirt, especially when just for them being who they are? And that’s basically how Lion-O was treated by everyone.

However, after watching the aforementioned episode along with the pilot, as well as “Between Brothers”, the fact that Tygra worked hard while Lion-O did not just keeps coming back to haunt me. I want to believe what the other posters said about Tygra and Claudus’ treatment making Lion-O think “What’s the point” in regards to his responsibilities, but if he was just lazy? That would really undermine the hero aspect of his character. Also, the fact that Tygra actually took his responsibilities seriously has made me start to actually feel sorry for him, and that’s not really a good thing for me, since i don’t care for the way he treats Lion-O (I still don’t think those random acts of Brotherly loyalty make up for all the negative treatment Tygra has given Lion-O. If i were Lion-O, i would’ve been glad to be rid of him in “Native Son”)

I just don’t think that Lion-O’s been given a fair deal here by the writers. Like i said once before, Panthro once said that his role was not to question his king’s orders, just follow them, yet that’s exactly what he did to Lion-O, he even insulted him, for no real reason. Even Cheetara and the Wilys respect Tygra more than they do Lion-O, all the poor guy has is Snarf, and after what happened with Pumyra, Lion-O is probably wishing he that he just died after the trials.

At times, i’ve even imagined that, in the future, Lion-O will be a cold and detached leader who may lead his people benevolently but is otherwise completely without emotion. And who could blame him, he has no queen, no old friends, no real family.

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Actually, none of the Cats have old friends or real family left (except fot the kittens) :wink:

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I don’t really see this because all the cats did come to respect him more towards the end of season 1. It’s not like they felt the same about him in the finale as the first few episodes. And there are plenty of other “fish in the sea” since they rescued all those slaves. I’m sure it would take awhile for him to get back to “dating”, but my point still stands.

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First of all, the others did have old friends: Tygra and Cheetara have each other, Panthro has Grune, Claudus and Dobo, Lion-O has no one, save only Snarf.

Second of all, they said that Lion-O didn’t take his role as a prince seriously and i once heard an online reviewer say that Lion-O was pampered and spoiled. But, the fact that his combat skills are slightly under par with Tygra’s aside, i just don’t see that.

If Lion-O was spoiled, pampered and didn’t take his role as next in line for the throne seriously, wouldn’t he just have a big ego. If he really didn’t take his royal responsibilities seriously, i’d imagine that he would have just marched down to the slums without a disguise and acted like he just didn’t care about the session with the Sword of Omens. Furthermore, he probably talked down to the other Cats and acted like he owned the place. But he didn’t do any of those things, he knew he had to disguise himself to be on the safe side, he actually snuck around to play it safe and he actually looked shocked when he found out he was late, indicating that he genuinely did know how important it was. He wasn’t even the one to start the fight with Alley Cats, from the looks of things, he was just observing the bullies from a far and, although disgusted by their mistreatment of the Dog, it looked like he was just going to keep walking and not get involved. They were the ones who started that fight, not him.

Tygra’s comment about Lion-O growing up seemed a bit uncalled for too, would a child make a comment about their being something beyond Thundera? Maybe, but as eloquently as Lion-O put it. Would a Child make a speech like the one Lion-O made about setting the Lizards free? I don’t think so. Would a child be willing to ignore the shallow gossip of those around him and actually stop to hear the side of the story of “enemy” instead of just believing the dogmatic propaganda of the “winning side”? I doubt it

His skills as a leader weren’t all that bad before the trials either. True, he was blinded by anger in “Ramalak Rising”, but good leaders know when to admit when they’re wrong and that’s basically what Lion-O did. Also, his plan to stay ahead of the Lizards in the fourth episode might have seemed cowardly, but it also seem rather sound: they were outnumbered considerably, a full frontal assault might have proven to be the end of them. Also, Lion-O’s plan to hide in the forest actually worked for the most part: Slithe’s best trackers couldn’t find them and the Lizards had to smoke them out, that’s actually saying something.

As for “Old Friends”, first of all, Lion-O in the flashback really did look like he was trying his best during that sparring session, and he genuinely looked dejected when Tygra bested him, Grune and Panthro even praised Tygra for it. Honestly, looking back, maybe Lion-O did develop a “What’s the point” attitude, if he really was just lazy, he probably wouldn’t have looked like he was trying his best. Furthermore, his actions outside the Thundrillium mine were more due to him not liking the way Panthro was treating him so far and wanted to prove himself to the old General. Seriously, Panthro just met Lion-O and already he was talking down to him? You would think Panthro would treat the son of his “old friend” a little better, he certainly never spoke ill of Tygra.

In the time frame after “BB” and before “NS” it was true that Lion-O was hurting from the resolve of the Love Triangle plot. But even so, you could still see that he was genuinely trying to move on with his life and it did look like he was trying not to let his anger dictate his leadership skills. True his attempts did fall flat on their face, but you have to at least give him credit for trying

All i’m saying is that Lion-O was getting a lot of grief and most of it was just for being who is. That’s just depressing. Not even his own enemies show any degree of respect: Mumm-Ra, Grune, Slithe and Ratar-O, they all think he’s unfit to rule as well, even some of the Lizard army thinks he’s foolish. Oh, and lets not forget that Dobo and Anet both think he’s unfit to lead as well. But i guess my biggest gripe is that, the way the series portrayed things, they can’t even say that Lion-O worked hard for all the things he has, since according to Tygra and Claudus, he did not, and that’s usual the bases for most heroes (especially the ones made by disney)

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Hey, srebak, as much as I agree with you on Lion-O’s NS treatment, I just want to know when we’ll all see the next update of your fic. That and I also admit, looking back on everyone’s points, I see that there’s no clear hero in the NS plotline. In the OS, the true hero was always Lion-O. But in the NS, there’s no true hero, cos it looks like practically everyone, except the Kits, is either an anti-hero or just secondary. The only characters that make sense are the villains, cos it’s clear what their roles are. So Lion-O may be a nice guy, but he is more of an anti-heroic protagonist rather than a hero. We may not hear the end of this whole thing till that damn hiatus comes to an end.

94

OK, just a thought here (yes, the Tygra’s advocate in me is coming up (:thumbsup:)

Many people say Lion-o and Tygra are like they are mostly because the latter was favored by their father, Claudus, while the former not. But is this so? Let’s see, because I don’t think so.

[ol]
[li]In “Native Son”, there were many hints of Claudus not being that attached to Tygra. Right when Tygra arrived in that balloon and the Queen was so excited, Claudus’ first reaction was one of surprise and maybe even rejection and despise: “A Tiger?” Not “Yayyy!!! We’re finally going to be parents!” I believe first reactions show how the further relationship will be settled.[/li][li]In that same episode, when the Queen announces Tygra that she was pregnant and thus she knew he wouldn’t any longer be king, she was visibly heart-broken, while Claudus just stood there, almost relieved.[/li][li]When the Queen died, Claudus wasn’t even able to hug and comfort Tygra, his so-called son. He just stood there (again) and said “I’m sorry”, as if he were the doctor announcing the Quen’s death to her relatives.[/li][li]When Claudus died, he told Lion-o he was proud of him, but had no kind words to Tygra.[/li][li]In “Into the Astral Plane”, when Lion-o was whining to Cheetara (in an obvious move to gain her favors, if you ask me), Cheetara said it was mostly because Tygra had had to live in his brother’s shadow his whole life. And she knew Tygra, so she knew how he felt. Funny here that she said Tigers were known for their pride (and they made it clear through the whole season), when in real life it is lions who are known for their pride (even the Zodiac sign of Leo has pride as one of their characteristics).[/li][/ol]
So, I think Claudus did love -or at least liked- Tygra in a sort of way, but it was mostly because Tygra was the “good” son, the one who followed the rules and did as he was told and was supposed to do. Again, I believe heartily that Tygra was that way only to remain in Claudus’ consideration), but I think Claudus never loved him as much as he loved Lion-o (which would be understandable after all), and that’s why he was so pushy on Lion-o. Claudus liked Tygra like the father who likes his son because he behaves well, not because of what he was, unlike Lion-o, who was loved no matter how much he screwed things up. Claudus was never proud of Tygra, he just acknowledged Tygra was good, nothing else, nothing special, not spontaneous, nothing. And this happens more frequently than we think. It’s not rare to see parents who like usually the older child because they are obedient and “perfect”, but admire with pride the rebelliousness and spontaneity of the younger ones. I think that was the burden over Tygra’s shoulders, and that’s the reason why he was the way he was.

JMO of course [FONT=&quot];)[/FONT]

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the the post right above

Many people say Lion-o and Tygra are like they are mostly because the latter was favored by their father, Claudus, while the former not. But is this so? Let’s see, because I don’t think so.

  1. In “Native Son”, there were many hints of Claudus not being that attached to Tygra. Right when Tygra arrived in that balloon and the Queen was so excited, Claudus’ first reaction was one of surprise and maybe even rejection and despise: “A Tiger?” Not “Yayyy!!! We’re finally going to be parents!” I believe first reactions show how the further relationship will be settled.

Response. "A tiger? it seem more like quetion where did a tiger come from.

  1. In that same episode, when the Queen announces Tygra that she was pregnant and thus she knew he wouldn’t any longer be king, she was visibly heart-broken, while Claudus just stood there, almost relieved.

Response. most of the time it the mom that beak the house change news like we move or a famliy member dieing.

3.When the Queen died, Claudus wasn’t even able to hug and comfort Tygra, his so-called son. He just stood there (again) and said “I’m sorry”, as if he were the doctor announcing the Quen’s death to her relatives.

Reponse. Me step dad did the some thing people hand a love one dieing in differnt ways.

  1. When Claudus died, he told Lion-o he was proud of him, but had no kind words to Tygra.

Reponse. Lion-O did something impresive.

  1. In “Into the Astral Plane”, when Lion-o was whining to Cheetara (in an obvious move to gain her favors, if you ask me), Cheetara said it was mostly because Tygra had had to live in his brother’s shadow his whole life. And she knew Tygra, so she knew how he felt. Funny here that she said Tigers were known for their pride (and they made it clear through the whole season), when in real life it is lions who are known for their pride (even the Zodiac sign of Leo has pride as one of their characteristics).

Reponse. valided points no commint

So, I think Claudus did love -or at least liked- Tygra in a sort of way, but it was mostly because Tygra was the “good” son, the one who followed the rules and did as he was told and was supposed to do. Again, I believe heartily that Tygra was that way only to remain in Claudus’ consideration), but I think Claudus never loved him as much as he loved Lion-o (which would be understandable after all), and that’s why he was so pushy on Lion-o. Claudus liked Tygra like the father who likes his son because he behaves well, not because of what he was, unlike Lion-o, who was loved no matter how much he screwed things up. Claudus was never proud of Tygra, he just acknowledged Tygra was good, nothing else, nothing special, not spontaneous, nothing. And this happens more frequently than we think. It’s not rare to see parents who like usually the older child because they are obedient and “perfect”, but admire with pride the rebelliousness and spontaneity of the younger ones. I think that was the burden over Tygra’s shoulders, and that’s the reason why he was the way he was.

Reponse. Claudus questioned if lion-O should be king and praised tygra

JMO of course [FONT=&quot];)[/FONT]
[/QUOTE]

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  1. Tigers were know to live seperate from the rest of the Cats because they remained loyal to Mumm-Ra. The rest of the Cats by and large did not trust tigers after they showed they sided with evil. Besides, a balloon carrying a baby just floated in on the wind. The vast majority of those not screwed in the head would be curious, not jumping for joy. John Kent didn’t dance a jig when little Kal-El was found.
  2. He was standing impassively. Now, let’s think about this, for years Claudus didn’t think he’d get a blood heir and now he has one. Of course his initial preference might have been toward the child that is of his loins. And what was he supposed to say to Tygra; “sorry champ, better luck next time?”
  3. He wasn’t exactly all loving on newborn Lion-O either so… There are some men who don’t show emotion well. Many cultures venerate men not showing any kind of pain or emotion: Japanese, Chinese, Arabic, et cetera. Perfectly reasonable that Claudus might be a strong male type who doesn’t wear his emotions on his sleeve.
  4. Tygra was told his entire life that Claudus was proud of him. Lion-O was not. Tygra had kind words from Claudus all his life, Lion-O did not. In his moments of death, Claudus wanted to let his true son know he did not hate him.
  5. Yeah, Tygra being his usual A-hole self to Lion-O was all set up by Lion-O to gain Cheetara’s favor…
    Actually it was because Tygra felt he was living in Lion-O’s shadow his whole life. Did wonders to show how shallow and petty of a character Tygra really was because every wrong he blamed Lion-O for only ever really existed in his own head.
    It was never really shown how much Cheetara and Tygra knew each other. From what was shown up to the Between Brothers rug pull that drove off fans and put Thundercats in the express lane for non renewal the two never really had much contact before or after Cheetara became a cleric.

As to your end note, in the pilot episode, Claudus chastises Lion-O in public, saying he should be more like Tygra. That is not the comment one makes when they simply like another. Following your logic, Claudus tells Lion-O - who you say he loves - to be more like Tygra - who you say Claudus only liked - and that logic doesn’t add up. Why should someone who is loved act more akin to another who is only liked?

Seems you are trying to put a spin on the old parable of the Prodigal Son to defend, to draw up sympathy for, and to excuse Tygra’s poor behavior throughout the series.

97

[/QUOTE]

I can honestly say id rather want a boy than a girl, just cause it seems easier to have a boy (a normal boy, and by that i mean what a “normal boy” in this day and age usually look and are like) rather then a girl. As they are.. Girls, stuff they do i dont understand and having to be afraid of them getting raped when they are out at night which i would not feel same about if i had a boy.

Of course what i just said you can twist and turn around over a million times but least the boys in my family (by that i mean overall = most of them) were calm and did not cause any trouble (not that the girls did that either).I just understand boys easier as i was a boy myself. If i had a girl i feel like i can’t come with all the “good advice” like i could with a boy, which means the mum would have to do the talking. With all that in mind i would not be sad or do anything different IF i got a girl, it for me just FEELS like it would be harder to go through.

In other words, a first reaction does not set the stone for the whole relationship, heck, most of my friends i have now i could never ever think i would hang out with 10 years ago.

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I’m not, really (to the bolds). I’ve said many times I think Tygra has responisibility in how his relationship with Lion-o grew to be, but Lion-o shared it with him.

And about the blue part, you have written it yourself: it was Claudus who made Lion-o feel inferior, not Tygra. I think many people jut can’t get mad at the Father figure and take it on the brother.

And I’m standing on my foot here, I do think Claudus always felt more affection to Lion-o than to Tygra, even when he didn’t show it as he should. And again, it would have been completely understandable as Lion.o washis biological son, I’m not saying that was wrong, but I think Tygra did sense/feel it and try to get Claudus’ affection in a level he knew he would never have it: Lion-o’s level.

And, it’s not like Lion-o was the most sympathetic brother ever. He never wondered how Tygra felt, neither seemed to care. He just was over-defenssive, and as they say, the best defense is the attack.

I’m not saying Tygra was the victim, all I’m saying is Lion-o wasn’t either.

99

Upon further thought, i just thought of (or rather remembered) another thing that i have a problem with. Why is the show going out of its way to make it so Lion-O is the only one with lessons to learn? Why make it seem like the rest of the Gang is already passed that phase? They even make it seem like the Kittens know more than Lion-O, why is that?

Personally, i would’ve preferred it if it was just Jaga who had the knowledge to teach Lion-O something.

I mean what makes everyone else so much more mature than Lion-O? Oh sure, maybe Panthro could teach him something about military tactics, but that should be as far as it should go.

Why can’t Lion-O be the one to teach them something, at least enough to make it seem like they all have a lot to still learn (sans Panthro that is)

100

Poor writing is to blame for Lion-O’s portrayal.