About Cheetara, I’m not sure if they defined that Clerics shouldn¿t love or marry or anything like that (they’re no Jedi after all), so we don’t know if she gave up her manthle for love. Besides, there were no Clerics anymore out there, so what’s the reason for her to remain alone?
About Tygra, I’ll say two things:
a) it wasn’t his fault at all that he bested Lion-o. Relationships are built both sides, and yes, he might have been jealous and tried harder to excel his brother, but his brother allowed that to happen.
b) about losing his mother emotionally, yes, he did. Try to explain your argument to a three-years old, who has already lived the loss of his biological parents, and ask him to understand it.
I remember a youtube video on Kingdom Hearts where there was some arguments about how was Sora a hero. I think the best comment went along the lines like this: Sora lost his home, separated from his friends, landed in a new place, fighting monsters, betrayed by Riku, Kairi a vegetable without her heart, loses his memory, and keeps on searching for his friends and at the very end of the II in the game, he can still smile right on through it finally reuniting with his friends. Now that’s being a hero!
From my perspective, it is a synopsis with Lion-o in a ways. However, remember in the very first episode the prophecy went that “he would be born of fire.” My ears perked up when it was mentioned that one line. Now many would think it’s because he is a hot tempered character is what was meant. I disagree. His trials and tribulations: having his heart broken twice, bearing many scars of those not believing in him, having loved ones die, his kingdom and his comfort zone gone, bearing responsibility suddenly as a king, dying and coming back, etc. We can agree in a ways that he is a Christ-like figure but Lion-o does have his flaws, of course. Christian theology has always taught of being “tried by fire” or going through a “fiery trial” and to test your faith, and still come out at the end still with your joy (or coming out as pure gold in scripture) intact makes you worthy. Losing something in order to gain something greater…Now Lion-o is truly a hero because he keeps his humanity, kindness, and his heart intact to share with others despite the hell he has been through. He was capable of uniting the animals at the end, of course.
I have to ask, why was it so important to make Lion-O so inexperienced compared to the other Cats? Would it have been so bad to make in have more experience than the people he’s supposed to be leading?
Furthermore, Lion-O basically never got any respect, while Claudus got a truckload of it, as did Tygra. I want to say that Tygra didn’t deserve it, but I can’t even say that, which bothers me all the more. They make it clear that Tygra worked hard to get that respect and make it seem like Lion-O didn’t deserve any of it. It’s like we’re suppose show sympathy for Tygra more than anyone else, rather than the brother he never once hesitated to make life harder for.
I’m just feeling a lot of sympathy for Lion-O because i’m the youngest in a litter of three, and i personally hate the idea of always being ignorant compared to them and the fact that my older siblings always seem to be ahead of me somehow. It’s just so frustrating
I know, right? The writers of the new series knew nothing about the original series. They couldn’t bother learning about that before jumpstarting the reboot.
That’s the point. The new Lion-O is so much more relatable in terms of respect (and lack thereof) and age limiting power/influence. The point wasn’t to make him some all powerful Professor Deus Ex Machina Loved by Everyone because that’s so boring and not relatable at all. The sympathy you are feeling for him is what should be felt and is the complete intent of the writers. If you weren’t supposed to feel bad for Aang in the avatar series because very few people believed in him and he didn’t have all his powers, then the show would have flopped. The opposite of this would be a protagonist who is overpowered, arrogant, and not emotional yet the writers play it out like we, as an audience, are supposed to care for this person when nothing bad happens to them.
The fact that they were building upon his strength as a leader and as a king his people could have faith in is extremely hard to miss, and if character development is illegal now then arrest all the good authors.
Merged Post:
The above conversation has little to do with the OS. You could argue they played out Lion-O as a stronger character, but I could argue why I should be inclined to view an overpowered, cop-out machine over a character that learns important things and grows over time into a better person. But I regress, because this argument is just another repeat of the “OS fan gets ****ed because NS is not a carbon-copy, so NS fan provides their side with facts” scenario. It’s like playoff chess with a pigeon; no matter how hard I try, the pigeon will always knock over all the important pieces and strut around victoriously.
Tell you one thing. I personally relate to Lion-O on a different level from srebak. Long story short, he and I both have had our hearts broken twice for all the wrong reasons. And yes, I agree with AMS and Hammy, because, well, AMS ‘fire’ theory speaks for itself. And Hammy, same rings true for what you said on a perfect-to-flaws protagonist. Plus, I was extremely irritated with Tygra from the start. To tell you the truth, OS Tygra was bad@$$, but his voice annoyed me. Especially in the Keystone episode and the Garden of Delights. For NS Tygra, it’s the other way around. Anyhow, to answer srebak’s question once and for all. HOW CAN LION-O BE A FREAKING NICE GUY AGAINST ALL ODDS?!?! Two words: SHEER. WILLPOWER.
I (regrettably) recently watched the Thundercats 2011 Pilot episode, and i have to say, i just don’t understand why Lion-O was given such a hard time.
I know some of you here are going to give me a reason for that (especially the Tygra fans, who, for some reason, have something against Lion-O), but I honestly cannot see what Lion-O has done wrong.
So he believed in Technology, so what? True, the other Cats dismissed it as fantasy, but when you think about, what proof did any of them have of that? Was it simply because they never saw it? Because as we’ve already seen, the Dogs are not strangers to it and the Berbils practically are Technology. It seems to me that Technology was only considered a myth because the Cats became too narrow minded in light of their prosperity. This just means Lion-O is far more open minded than others of his kind, even his own family. Though, i’ll be honest, i think Jaga knew more than he was telling. Lots of old world explorers were called crazy because they didn’t believe the world was flat, yet it was that very belief that made them famous.
So he was late to his “Rite of Passage”, lots of people are late to things. I dare say that there have been cases where people are late to parties dedicated to them.
So he was nice to the Lizards, big whoop. Is it wrong to look passed personal prejudice in an attempt to prevent future bloodshed? Maybe, if the Cats had taken the needs and feelings of the other animals into account, the Lizards might not have had any reason to wage war against them. The only reason the animals “helped” Leo was because they hated Mumm-Ra too. And the only reason the Lizards sided with Mumm-Ra is because he hated the Cats more than they do.
Furthermore, Tygra once said that Lion-O has undermined him his whole life, undermined him how? Because he was given the crown and the sword which were his by right? Which, i might add, he never wanted in the first place. Because he was falling for a girl who leaned against him, held his hand and even kissed him on the cheek? I still think it was easy for Lion-O to take all of that the wrong way.
I think it’s the same reason everyone gives the person going against the social norms a hard time. They were taught to hate lizards, so him letting them free was a shock. Everyone was used to his father/someone older being a leader, so they gave him a hard time for that. It’s fairly realistic how they portrayed him having a hard time, and Tygra is the best portrayal of a relentless skeptic there is.
“So he believed in Technology, so what? True, the other Cats dismissed it as fantasy, but when you think about, what proof did any of them have of that? Was it simply because they never saw it? Because as we’ve already seen, the Dogs are not strangers to it and the Berbils practically are Technology. It seems to me that Technology was only considered a myth because the Cats became too narrow minded in light of their prosperity. This just means Lion-O is far more open minded than others of his kind, even his own family. Though, i’ll be honest, i think Jaga knew more than he was telling. Lots of old world explorers were called crazy because they didn’t believe the world was flat, yet it was that very belief that made them famous.”
You kind of answered your own question. The point was to show that more open minded people are subjected to ridicule when presenting the idea of what seems outrageous or impossible.
To truly answer the thread’s question, I think he can maintain this because he believes in himself enough. It seemed like the other cats put all their faith in a leader who only confound their knowledge to what was deemed acceptable by the cats, including technology, hating lizards, and other things. Anyone is subject to doubt a new leader, especially after such drastic and traumatic events. Therefore, I think he views the big factors that they are still alive and that there’s still hope over some cat complaining about his plans to invade whatever or sabotage some military tactic by Mumm-Ra.
I agree with you, except in the point that we Tygra fans hate Lion-o (at least I don’t ;)). What does bother me though is Lion-o fans trying to blame all of Lion-o’s “misery” on Tygra, as if it was his fault that he excelled Lion-o in some things… it was due to lion-o’s own mistakes, carelessness and rescklessness.
And I think Cats have a reason to distrust and even dislike Lizards… they’ve been enemies for years, and they might have lost relatives and fruiedns in the hands of the Lizards (and the other way back), so it’s at least understandable. To see that their future King might be befriending Lizards (I know it wasn’t Lion-o’s intention to get that further, but people often interpret things as they want), they could have felt is as treachery.
Finally, about the Lion-o - Tygra relationship and their mutual resentment (because Lion-o also resented Tygra, you can see that although producers tried not to show iot that much as Tygra’s resentment), I think it’s deeper and more complex than that.
To answer your inital question, he really can’t still be a nice guy but is only because that is how he was written to be. The crew made Lion-O the doormat so as long as they penned him to smile while he was getting walked all over, he would smile regardless of the mud and dirt that was tracked all over him. Yeah, they said he’d be made a king through trial by fire but at this point, when it came to suffering, Lion-O was being written to give Jesus Christ a run for the money. Still, as long as the Crew was writing him as a bootheel, he’d continue to be a bootheel.
You can’t see what Lion-O has done wrong because he hasn’t done anything wrong.
As far as tech, remember, to the Cats, tech was taboo. So Lion-O’s interest in it was seen as unnatural.
That being said, I’ll admit, the entire planning, placement, and reactions of technology in series was just poorly done. Lion-O loves tech then goes to hating it even though he spends his days riding in a wonderment of technology without so much as a twitching an eyebrow, fights along side a Thundercat that has become melded with the very technology he supposedly hates, finally admits he has tech issues and gets over his tech issues all in the same day. Meanwhile, Tygra hates tech, grows up having nothing at all to do with it, but can suddenly pick up pistols and sniper rifles and be a dead eye shot with them, can jump right into the Thundertank and charge forward, and is able to fly any aircraft because his great-great-great grandparents could…
Again, just seemed like the Crew used the technology plot hole as another way to highlight how and why they wanted Tygra to be number 1.
Sadly, not much time was spent by the Crew fleshing out the history, culture, and customs of the Cats so we don’t know how they stood on being fashionably late. It would seem they didn’t tolerate it though. remember though, Lion-O is a royal and royals are held to a higher degree of etiquette. Still find it hilarious that people claim Tygra knew he was winking at Cheetara during this scene given the fact that it is impossible to tell who is who as far as Clerics given their full face and body wardrobe. But alas that is a discussion for another time and place.
Remember, one of the big reasons Tygra was favored by the King, the court, and the people was because he is a xenophobic racist. Lion-O was not. Thus, his ideas of peace, unity, and respect were totally foreign to the rest of the Cats. It was those concepts that set Lion-O a part from the rest of his people and initally what attracted Cheetara to him even though she later flip-flopped in ep14, taking up Tygra’s bigoted view of the Lizards.
Tygra’s remark about Lion-O undermining him was meant to garner the character some undo sympathy - much like ‘Native Son’ was meant to justify and excuse Tygra’s pathetic behavior.
Lion-O grew up constantly hearing and seeing that he would never be as good as Tygra (who only worked as hard as he did to shame Lion-O and prove he was worthy, not his younger brother) It is understandable that eventually the youth would stop trying as hard as he did. I mean, what was the point when he knew he wouldn’t beat Tygra? But, to Tygra’s fractured psyche, enough was never enough and the only way he could deal with his menatl problems was to insist that Lion-O was undermining him, that he was taking everything he had.
To Tygra, the truth never mattered. It didn’t matter that Lion-O inherited the throne through birth and didn’t ever appear to even want it. It didn’t matter that the Sword chose Lion-o either. Tygra had to blame Lion-O because he was too weak and cowardly to accept that he really wasn’t worthy.
It’s just like the truth not mattering to those who claim that it was 'fair" for Tygra to wind up with Cheetara because Lion-O got the Sword and Crown. Like the majority of educated people, I’ll never be able to grasp how a crown to a kingdom that no longer exists and a Sword that chose you, not the other way around, - both by and large inanimate, unfeeling, uncaring, objects- somehow equates to being on par with the love and affection of a living, breathing creature. The fact of the matter is that it doesn’t.
I found that probably the most honest exchange that took place between Tygra and Cheetara since they were paired together was during episode 26 when they admitted their relationship consisted of nothing more than each saving the others backside.
You raise some very good points Srebak as well as some intersting queries. Nicely done.
The point was not to make everything “fair”, and the point was to show overcoming problems and progressing more than anything being handed to someone, at least from the main character’s stance. I see too many cartoons these days where main characters just get handed everything (cough Naruto, TLOK, etc. cough) and it provides for bigger plot conveniences than any other form of bad writing. I too believe that Tygra “deserved” Cheetara over Lion-O is not a valid explanation of what went on, but I also believe that there is a reason, and it’s not hard to see. The fact is, Cheetara knew Tygra longer, and she had a reason to like him more than Lion-O. Why would she choose a guy she’s known for a few weeks over someone who helped her get her life together and become what she dreamed to be? Another thing I do want to point out is that the sword does provide the wielder with a LOT of power, and although that does not equate to being loved by someone else, it doesn’t mean that being chosen by it is necessarily a downfall.
Tygra did not work hard to shame Lion-o, as you say; he did so to gain Claudus’ favor, because he was afraid of being rejected and abandoned again in favor of Lion-o. He grew up knowing hmself an abandoned kid, and he might have been afraid of his foster family doing the same to him if he wasn’t good enough.
Not my fault Tygra’s behavior had such a negative effect on Lion-O. If I’d written him, he’d be an inspiring figure that kids could look up to and admire like the Original Series Tygra was. Now there was a great character! Still ties Lion-O for my favorite Thundercat.
Actually, he did. While proving himself to Claudus was a big part of why Tygra did what he did, another part was also to continually show that Lion-O was not worthy. In that way, he worked to shame Lion-O in the eyes of his father and the city.
Since he was never rejected or abandoned in favor of Lion-O in the first place, there was no possible chance for Tygra to be rejected or abandoned again.
He didn’t learn he was abandoned until he was an adult walking through some mountain peaks with Lion-O. Prior to that, he just knew he was the only tiger in Thundera. Simply being the only one in an area by no means equals knoweldge of being abandoned.
I wouldn’t say he’s guilty but he is a direct influence on Lion-O’s actions and fate - both good and bad. Given what was shown in series, there is no way to say with any credibility that Tygra’s treatment of Lion-O didn’t have an adverse effect on him. He failed the Trials because of the fact Tygra had drilled it into Lion-O’s head that he’d never be able to beat him.
[ol]
[li]We don’t know when Tygra learnt about him being abandoned.[/li][li]I’ll say this again: Lion-o has been as much as mean (if not meaner) to Tygra than Tygra was to Lion-o.[/li][li]Tygra wasn’t the only one thinking Lion.o wasn’t worthy, Claudus did as well. And personally, I think a father’s opinion will make a bigger imprint in a child’s mind than a brother’s. Lion-o did not fail the trails because Tygra drilled anything into his head; if someone did it, it was Claudus. And at the end, it was Lion-o himself.[/li][li]There’s nothing wrong in a son wanting to prove himself before his father, and that’s what Tygra did. If anything, it was Lion-os lack of “show offness” (to call it some say) which caused that Claudus didn’t take him seriously. Had Lion-o worked half as hard as Tygra, things would have been different for him, but producers wanted to make him the Prince Adam of Thundera, all reckless and relaxed.[/li][li]Finally, we never saw Tygra trashing Lion-o in front of Claudus, he always told him what he thought sqaurely to him.[/li][/ol]
