I love the NS, but maybe you should be able to recognize a plot hole when you see it, instead of trying to justify it.
The NS has a lot of plot holes.
Tygra is perfect, that’s the problem. The writers emphasize too much that Lion-O is an immature boy, Tygra behaves the same.
However, he magically grows, he magically is a great pilot, he magically is a sharpshooter, unless the script says otherwise, in a few words, is perfect.
People do not like something perfect without any reason that justifies it.
First, I’m not talking about plot holes, I’m talking about characterization. Tygra being good at flying and shooting instantly was not shown to have a dramatic affect on his character. He never rubbed it into Lion-O’s face that he was good at those particular things.
And Tygra isn’t perfect. Despite all this stuff he can do, he’s still insecure about his own self worth and that make shim act out. Being good at fighting and shooting and flying didn’t save the cats when they got captured trying to take back the Sword of Omens from Mumm-Ra. That is a part of Tygra’s flaw; while his abilities and ambition make him better at doing some things, they often aren’t utilized outside of Tygra’s own needs. This is in opposition to Lion-O, who often acts selflessly despite his lack of said abilities and experience. Tygra being allowed to be good at flying and shooting in itself is not a plot whole; the plot hole is how he’s able to be an instant expert at them. But it’s a plot hole I can tolerate, and as I said, I don’t believe those things actually affect his personality.
I don’t like having to repeat myself, but I guess I have to. Being faster, stronger, more skilled, or smarter does not make you better than someone else. This is what Tygra believes, and it seems its what many fans believe too, and that’s wrong. Despite all Tygra’s accomplishments, he’s far from a perfect person because he’s held back by his own pride and insecurity. Tygra would not be a better king than Lion-O unless he learned to see the big picture, show some compassion, and treat the other races as equals, and no amount of prowess in battle or tactics would ever change that. There’s more to being a ruler than being strong, and it’s a lesson that both Tygra and Lion-O have had to learn. That some fans can’t seem to understand this basic theme frustrates me to no end.
Another Avatar example; Azula was called perfect by her father. She was one of the most powerful firebenders in the world and outclassed Zuko in almost every way. But I don’t think any sane fan would say she would have made a better ruler than Zuko, because she was evil and manipulative and looked down on others. Tygra may not be as bad as her, but he does share some similarities, in regards to relations with his brother.
I won’t go into an at length debate about the charactres simply because that all boils down to differences of opinion. There will be those who feel there was character development and there will be those who feel there wasn’t. That’s life. We can spend all the time in the world hashing back and forth and get nowhere.
But, on the topic of ratings decline, that is a stone cold fact. Another person on here tried to claim there was no ratings decline as well and was also proven wrong.
Anyone can go to any site that has the ratings listed and just look to see the drop.
1st half of season 1
Ep 1&2 - 2.4
ep 3 - 1.4
ep 4 - 1.8
ep 5 - 1.7
ep 6 - 1.6
ep 7 - 1.6
ep 8 - 1.6
ep 9 - 1.5
ep 10 - 1.6
ep 11 - 1.4
ep 12 - 1.3
ep 13 - 1.4
2nd half of season 1
ep 14 - N/A
ep 15 - N/A
ep 16 - N/A
ep 17 - N/A
ep 18 - N/A
ep 19 - N/A
ep 20 - 1.5
ep 21 - N/A
ep 22 - 1.7
ep 23 - N/A
ep 24 - 1.4
ep 25 - 1.5
ep 26 - 1.5
There is no way a person can honestly claim there wasn’t a drop in ratings.
The ratings for the 1st half clearly dropped as the series progressed. Starting at a 2.4 and ending on a 1.4 is a decline by any academic regard.
The ratings for the second half…8 episodes didn’t even earn Nelsen ratings. The highest rated 2nd half episode brought in a 1.7 which was only one tenth higher than the average ratings of the first half.
As much as you might not want to admit it, it is a fact that the ratings decreased as the series progressed.
I’m not saying the decline is strictly due to any potential character imbalance and regression the crew created but it is IMO a contributing factor just as the low writing quality, rushed flow, sketchy plot, forgetting of special abilities, and removal of key aspects of Thunderacts such as the Code of Thundera, the Thundercat symbols, et cetra are conrtibuting factors IMO.
Too much was changed and the series ended up being Thundercats in name only to me. That’s just how I see it. Like I said, different opinions for different people.
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Very good points. It always struck a negative cord with me that Tygra who hated Tech could pick up a laser pistol and just know how to deadeye fire it then move onto a sniper rifle and be a crack shot as well. Then move on to being a flying ace able to pilot any craft without fail simple because his ancestors were pilots when they served Mumm-ra…
Not to mention the overly egotistical self absorbed flirtation throughout Curse of Ratilla. The fact is, Tygra never really had to deal with any negative fallout while Lion-O was always shouldering some new trouble.
I can honestly understand why so many refer to the 2011 Tygra as Tygra-Stu because he really was presented very Gary-Stu like.
Of course, on the note of tech issues, I always wondered about Lion-O and tech. he loved it in the first two episodes then in Soul Sever we find out that he’s harbored an issue with tech ever since the fall of Thundera even though he’s been in the Thundertank all this time, he’s been with the Berbils, his general who rarely treats him like a King has arms that are tech based, et cetera. For someone who supposedly had an issue with tech, it sure wasn’t shown.
There wasn’t a drop in ratings besides after the pilot, which happens with a lot of shows. I checked them every week like Gold Lion. You can even go back and check the “Weekly Ratings Thread”. It has every single episode’s rating somewhere within it.
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Yes they did. Just because they aren’t on Wikipedia doesn’t mean they didn’t have ratings. Green Lantern never had a higher rating than ThunderCats and it still has them.
When it comes to ratings, that is NOT the issue.
If you want the real reason the show was cancelled, don’t read any of the previous posts. It wasn’t because it wasn’t like the original. I wasn’t because of the shipping. It wasn’t because of the story. It wasn’t because of a missing emblem. It wasn’t any of those. The reason it was/may be cancelled is because the toys, which were expected to be the main source of profit, didn’t sell as much, therefore causing more of a loss than a profit.
Maybe you shouldn’t believe what you see on Wikipedia. The ratings for the second season weren’t so low they didn’t register, someone just didn’t bother to record them. I checked TV By the Numbers, and they don’t have ratings recorded for Young Justice during that time period either. They mention percentage growths, but no actual numbers.
This was written after episode 19 aired, which according to Wikipedia has no ratings recorded. And yet the article mentions “impress performances.” I have searched that site for Young Justice ratings on episodes that aired at the same time as the TC episodes that don’t have any recorded, and there are none. And Young Justice has evidence of having good ratings. So, for whatever reason, the people in charge of recording ratings just weren’t doing it at that time. Even on days when there aren’t actual numbers recorded, they still mention ThunderCats as being a reason for a growth in ratings.
And I find it highly unlikely that a show which follows Ben 10 and leads into the DC Nation block would have such low ratings that they wouldn’t even register. As for the drop in numbers, the first two episodes were the premiere. It was a big event that got promoted and everyone tuned in for. Of course ratings are going to be lower after that, and even when they did lower, the data you’ve given shows that on average it was a 1.5. Even in the latter half, those ratings were often comparable and sometimes better than Green Lanterns, which CN actually promoted.
And I ask you, just how many TC commercials did you see when the season returned in March? Because all I saw was one. I find that lack of promotion appalling. A good show can only get so far without getting promoted, and I find it a miracle its ratings were as good as they were considering that. So don’t go touting these supposedly stone cold facts without first fact checking.
Back to characterization; Tygra never said he hated tech. He just didn’t believe in it until Thundera fell. If Tygra is anything, he’s usually pragmatic. As for Lion-O not liking it, that did strike me as odd, but at the same time we never saw him use it or take to it like Panthro or Tygra did. While he my not have liked it, I don’t think he really loathed it. It just left a very bad impression on him for a while, so I can imagine him wanting to avoid using tech out of fear of mishandling it.
I’ve seen one person use Tygra-Stu, on the CN forum. I think there’s a term on TVTropes called Jerkass Stu, which would fit Tygra, but there’s one thing keeping him from being a Stu in my eyes, and that he he is not meant to be an ideal person. He acts like a jerk. A person we’re supposed to see as perfect would not act this way, and I never got the impression that the writers wanted us to believe his behavior was something to admire. He gets called out on it by both Lion-O and Cheetara. Maybe he never really gets punished for it, and maybe he did get the girl, but he didn’t win Cheetara by being a jerk, and he certainly didn’t earn the right to be king for anything he actually did.
Hate to tell you but I didn’t get those ratings from Wikipedia. They came from the links to website provided here and no, they don’t contain ever weeks rating because some weeks episodes didn’t earn a rating.
To the powers that be, ratings are an issue just as they are to many fans. While they might not be an issue to you and a handful of others doesn’t mean a majority doesn’t take them into consideration.
Remember Hammy, to The Powers That Be, you are a little worm on a little hook in a big pond.
Actually, most of what you stated not being the reasons are exactly the reasons; you just don’t want to accept it and that’s fine. There are still people who can’t accept that America hasn’t improved under Obama.
Everybody has their own opinions; some are just more accepting of others.
The ratings for the second season weren’t so low they didn’t register, someone just didn’t bother to record them. I checked TV By the Numbers, and they don’t have ratings recorded for Young Justice during that time period either. They mention percentage growths, but no actual numbers.
ctrl+f for Thundercats. This was written after episode 19 aired, which according to Wikipedia has no ratings recorded. And yet the article mentions “impress performances.” I have searched that site for Young Justice ratings on episodes that aired at the same time as the TC episodes that don’t have any recorded, and there are none. And Young Justice has evidence of having good ratings. So, for whatever reason, the people in charge of recording ratings just weren’t doing it at that time. Even on days when there aren’t actual numbers recorded, they still mention ThunderCats as being a reason for a growth in ratings.
And I find it highly unlikely that a show which follows Ben 10 and leads into the DC Nation block would have such low ratings that they wouldn’t even register. As for the drop in numbers, the first two episodes were the premiere. It was a big event that got promoted and everyone tuned in for. Of course ratings are going to be lower after that, and even when they did lower, the data you’ve given shows that on average it was a 1.5. Even in the latter half, those ratings were often comparable and sometimes better than Green Lanterns, which CN actually promoted.
And I ask you, just how many TC commercials did you see when the season returned in March? Because all I saw was one. I find that lack of promotion appalling. A good show can only get so far without getting promoted, and I find it a miracle its ratings were as good as they were considering that. So don’t go touting these supposedly stone cold facts without first fact checking.
Back to characterization; Tygra never said he hated tech. He just didn’t believe in it until Thundera fell. If Tygra is anything, he’s usually pragmatic. As for Lion-O not liking it, that did strike me as odd, but at the same time we never saw him use it or take to it like Panthro or Tygra did. While he my not have liked it, I don’t think he really loathed it. It just left a very bad impression on him for a while, so I can imagine him wanting to avoid using tech out of fear of mishandling it.
I’ve seen one person use Tygra-Stu, on the CN forum. I think there’s a term on TVTropes called Jerkass Stu, which would fit Tygra, but there’s one thing keeping him from being a Stu in my eyes, and that he he is not meant to be an ideal person. He acts like a jerk. A person we’re supposed to see as perfect would not act this way, and I never got the impression that the writers wanted us to believe his behavior was something to admire. He gets called out on it by both Lion-O and Cheetara. Maybe he never really gets punished for it, and maybe he did get the girl, but he didn’t win Cheetara by being a jerk, and he certainly didn’t earn the right to be king for anything he actually did.
I don’t mean to be troll like but in order objectively analyze the situation, is it reasonable for CN to continue a show that does not have a solid set of viewers and is operating in the red?
could anybody please tell me why He-man & TMOTU 200x series was cancelled. because it feels like like the same thing that happened with the He-man series is happening to the this thundercats series.
Hammy, just because you claim one is wrong doesn’t mean they are. As a matter of fact, it has already been hashed out at length that when you claim someone is wrong, you are the one in the wrong because you do not respect their opinion; you simply want them to fall in line with yours and that is not objective, tactful, or condusive to anything positive.
Remember, you aren’t King of any hill no matter how much you want to believe you are.
And you keep claiming that ratings were bad without bringing up evidence besides the ratings from Wikipedia. I’ve checked TV By the Numbers, and they don’t having ratings for Young Justice on those dates either, and Young Justice does get good ratings. Even on some of the dates where ThunderCats doesn’t have real numbers listed, they still list Thundercats as reason for ratings growth. For whatever reason, some shows airing on those days just didn’t have ratings recorded.
I also know that they’ve recorded much lower ratings for shows on Disney XD that are around a third of Thundercats average. I find it highly suspicious that the show could go from “too low to register” to a 1.7 within a week.
I’ve looked up the evidence beyond that mere list, and anyone can see for themselves by doing a search on tvbythenumbers.com for Thundercats and Young Justice. You can keep telling me and anyone else that ratings were bad, but given the evidence nothing indicates that TC actually did any worse than shows that have been deemed to have decent ratings. If you’re going to convince me that this show actually had bad ratings, you’re going to have to show me more evidence instead of just telling me these are bad ratings. There was no drastic drop aside from the one after the premiere, which is to be expected, just variations within a range of about 0.5, sticking close to 1.5. To me, that seems like a stable viewership, especially when you compare it to Young Justice and Green Lantern. I’d believe it had bad ratings if it ever had an episode drop to 1.0, but as far as I can tell it didn’t, and reports from TV by the Numbers indicates it did help get ratings on Saturday mornings.
That is all I’m going to say on that. I would take you more seriously if you didn’t bring politics where it wasn’t needed, and imply that those with different opinions are in denial.
Is what I say, a plot hole and a poor characterization. The Big Picture is a fallacy.
Tygra is perfect from episode 14 to 26 and magically grows. fails when he assumes the role of king: a typical trope. The same applies Azula.
Tygra is a better king than Lion-O, Lion-O is prepared to be a hero not a king, a guide like Moses.
A king is selfish, a despot who thinks of his own interests and those of its people, not in a utopia of coexistence. Asula fit the role, the same goes for Tygra.
Lion-O defeats Mumm-Ra, but Lion-O can not defeat Tygra… no sense. A king does not need to learn anything when he was appointed King, that’s the big difference with the original series, Lion-O is not a king until the end of the first season. Is more logical because his teammates are taught to be a good king and when he becomes one always follow his orders.
In NS, Cheetara leaves him in combat, but does not suffer any consequences or even think about it, She is still a cleric? The writers ignore the fact, fans should explain that hole on their own, but not logical.
Of course it is Tygra who betrays him :eek: is the belief of Lion-O, enhanced by a prophecy that makes true, but never gives that impression.
That’s why the personality of Lion-O is the opposite of a king., because in this series idealize the role of King and force him to make decisions that the rest of his teammates do not assume.
But then, what is the logic of giving lessons to Lion-O? Lion-O must give his sword to Tygra, he magically become a perfect king, a perfect sword user.
The contrast of “he can do it on the first try” is anticlimactic.
Lion-O is always wrong when it does in its own way, is abandoned by his teammates, but Tygra takes ThunderTank, do the same and save the day, leading to the same madness and nobody complains … no sense.
I say it again, I love the new series, but is poorly developed.
Plot hole DOES NOT EQUAL something you don’t like. It is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story’s plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot. (thank you wikipedia)
On another hand it’s true that the show died cause of the toys. They did not sell so the show does not continue.
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Also the NS gets too much bashed imo. It has a rich background for the species, characters, magic, tech, EVERYTHING and it’s all done well.
I actually did reviewed the premiere for a magazine and gave it 10/10 for a reason. Story was good, it looked good, great music, voice actors. Most of that did not keep up the whole show through, but my favorite moments where when we got to know more about “The whole” in the show. Where they came from, who they were, where they are now etc. They tried something new and succeeded on all fronts. Sadly it was not made to fit kids as Hammy said. The show got caught in a web when the question rised “Kids or adults?” and it tries to please both.
Not for anything, but the TV BTNs for the most part referenced ratings for season 1 which aired Friday evenings. While it did present a demo share, it was the wrong demo. It measured 18-49 not 6-12. The 18-49 demo number is meaningless to CN good or bad.
Let’s also be honest, if the NS did meet ratings expectations, then it wouldn’t have been put on the chopping block.
But don’t take my word for it, look through the ratings thread here. These are the numbers that count. Note how Nick outpaces CN consistently. That was the problem, the NS was an expensive effort to help put a dent in Nick’s rating superiority but it didn’t.
[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]Final K6-11 Ratings for Saturday, May 12, 2012 [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]Cable Networks only [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2](Live + SD Data):
[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]Source: Disney Research from Nielsen Media Research Data NICKELODEON [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]3.6/20 [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]Avg. (7a-1p)
[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]T.U.F.F. Puppy 1.0/11; T.U.F.F. Puppy 1.9/16; Fairly OddParents Movie Wishology (1x60) 3.6/20; SpongeBob SquarePants 4.6/22; SpongeBob SquarePants 5.0/24; SpongeBob SquarePants 5.7/27; SpongeBob SquarePants 5.5/25; Legend of Korra 4.6/21; SpongeBob SquarePants 3.3/16; Power Rangers Samurai 2.6/ 14; Hero Factory: Breakout (1x60) 1.7/9 DISNEY CHANNEL [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]3.6/19[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2] Avg. (7a-1p)
[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]Mickey Mouse Clubhouse 1.8/21; Doc McStuffins 2.3/20; Mickey Mouse Clubhouse 2.6/16; Jake and the Never Land Pirates 2.7/14; Phineas and Ferb 3.2/16; Phineas and Ferb 3.7/18; Phineas and Ferb 3.6/17; Good Luck Charlie 4.0/18; Good Luck Charlie 5.2/24; Jessie 5.0/25; Wizards of Waverly Place 4.1/22; Wizards of Waverly Place 4.1/22 CARTOON NETWORK [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]1.4/8[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2] Avg. (7a-1p)
[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]Johnny Test 1.1/12; Redakai: Conquer the Kairu 1.0/8; Beyblade: Metal Masters 1.3/8; Pokemon: B & W: Rival Destinies 1.2/6; Ben 10: Ultimate Aliens 1.4/7;[SIZE=6] Thundercats 1.0/5;[/SIZE] The Green Lantern 1.4/6; Young Justice: Invasion 1.5/7; Mad 1.5/7; Level Up 1.4/7; Ninjago 1.8/10; Ninjago 2.1/11 DISNEY XD [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]0.6/3[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2] Avg. (7a-1p)
[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]Lab Rats 0.6/6; Motorcity 0.3/2; Phineas and Ferb 0.5/3; Kick Buttowski 0.5/3; Pair of Kings 0.6/3; Pair of Kings 0.6/3; So Random 0.7/3; Kickin It 0.8/4; Kick Buttowski (1x15) 0.6/3; Fish Hooks 0.4/2; Phineas and Ferb 0.6/3; A Goofy Movie (1x105) 1.0/5[/SIZE][/FONT]
I don’t know if Toonzone got the ratings from the same source or not, but I always watched them weekly and it never get below a 1.4 after the first half. It could just be that they’re measuring a different age group or something.
You did bring up a good point about consequence. Lion-O was really the only one who ever had to bear the brunt of any consequence for action and more often than not, he was belittled by those who were supposed to support him.
I firmly believe that toy sales - or lack of - did contribute to the shows iffy future but I simply can’t stand by that being the only reason. As I said before, there were many factors that came into play.
To be fair, ever since CN dropped the classic blocks of cartoons, Nickelodeon and Disney have just about always beat them out in overall ratings.
Still, one of the most notable aspects of this is that Thundercats scored a 1.0/5 while GL scored a 1.4/6 and YJ a 1.5/7 which means that GL and YJ were rated as viewed by a larger share of audience and the station was tuned in longer as well.
Was the series an absolute failure? HE** NO!
Did it fail in many aspects? Yes it did.
Did it succeed in many aspects? Yes it did.
Well the reasons you stated about it being not enough like the original as a reason for it to get cancalled is largely false. This was made to be a kid show, watched by kids. Even if the old fans did watch or nor (mostly old fans i think watched it with their kids) the ratings would still be good, kids would watch it, not knowing of the old show at all. Which means it does not matter.
Now the PROBLEM is the fact it’s not a toy driven kids show. Like said many times now the old show worked in such a way that you saw everyone doing “their thing” almost each episode to sell the toys. The NS was/is more storydriven and you did not get the same kind of show.It’s not a “monster of the week” show like the old show was.
