“Devil priest granted immortality by the Ancient Spirits of Evil in exchange for perpetual servitude but whose exact origins and motivations are unknown” still completely fits the NS Mumm-Ra. They just added more to it.
Chris here…
It’s a funny thing, because I must admit the one thing I would never have expected to hear from a fan of any franchise (including ThunderCats) is complaining about backstory and why stuff happens - I can imagine the writers sitting there and plotting out the story arcs thinking to themselves “Wow, the fans are gonna LOVE this, it answers questions they’ve always wanted the answers to!!” In reality, if I was writing the show, it’s probably what I’d be doing! 
I still come back to the point I made a short while ago - I think the show was missing a “hook” that kids could latch on to, it’s an almost intangible something but it’s there. Bear in mind that we’re watching the show as adults, and as such are looking for a show that adults will enjoy - likewise when we watch the original series as adults we see flaws in it that we didn’t see as kids. But I think to hit the spot with kids needs perhaps a different type of writing, or at the very least a certain skill that makes a series (and each episode of that series) appeal to both demographics. It’s a fine line, and one I’m very glad I don’t need to walk! 
Take care…
I’m starting to wonder if some “fans” are just here to criticize the NS as muchas possible. It’s sad that in a time of such uncertainty that instead of supporting the franchise as a whole, some people just want to nitpick the hell out of everything.
Last thing: My honest opinion?
The new series completely destroys the old series in every aspect. Better story, better dialogue, better action, actual character development, better animation (not really fair to say that considering modern technology), and just an overall more logical premise. And the problem with that? That doesn’t appeal to children. They want repetitive show where the good guys always win. I think CN/WB/Bandai did the wrong thing by expecting children to be the target audience instead of older people. I think it should have been placed as a more mature show (later at night and NOT Friday nights), and perhaps even on Adult Swim/Toonami. I don’t think it’s the writers’ fault for not making stuff kids liked. It’s the network itself for expecting them to.
Better in comparison to the original series for you? Or better in general? 
Unfair comparison, considering the difference in time/culture/technology. Don’t know if you were a child of the 80’s but things were different then versus now in how these shows were geared and the way in which they were produced. Any comparison is like apples and oranges, ST:TNG to TOS, (and another I can’t resist Kirk to Picard)
As stated before the NS was just Thundercats in name only, a conscientious decision was made to avoid this comparison by making the premise for the story so wildly different to anything that TOS had. The problem was, is that it was taken too far. Instead of building on to something existing, they started from scratch, and that was a poor strategy.
Last point, regarding the writers and creative team; they’re the ones that pitched the show, they were the ones who were responsible for ensuring the story met the demo, not the other way around. You don’t pitch a show and not know who you’re going after. It’s easy to blame CN/WB/Bandai for botching things, but they shouldn’t bear the brunt of everything.
I just want to say, I really didn’t dislike the NS (yes we will never know how Bengali’s NS representation looks like, damn) so long as it was simply not as engaging as TOS. (Yes I know I was 5 at the time) The sad fact is, an the ratings prove it, is that the NS was just no good at it.
Absolutely right. It’s the same gauntlet run by every remake of anything, ever. People who have got so devoted to the original that they’re blind to any faults it might have. Let’s not kid ourselves, yes the original Thundercats rocked, but it had faults, some of which were annoying.
In some cases, the fault can lie in the hooks of the show. Even as a kid I got annoyed by the fix-all nature of the catchphrase. Yes, it was great when you hear that high chord on the piccolos or whatever it was playing it, and when it summoned the other cats to Lion-O’s aid it rocked. But the way the writers evidently had to crowbar it into every episode (apart from the Trials), sometimes grated. You don’t need it in every single one, we’re not going to forget it if it’s absent from one episode. Nobody ever forgot Safari Joe’s catchphrase, and he was only in one episode (and a bit).
Compare this to another of my favourite shows as a kid, Visionaries. There were eight power staffs, nine spells (Darkstorm’s staff of decay had an “undo” option), so nine catchphrases. Not every staff was used in every episode. Some staffs were only used rarely, some episodes only had two or three staffs used. All the spells still stayed in my head. Granted, Visionaries didn’t have the same success as Thundercats, but that’s not the writers’ fault.
Better in general. I get that it is an older cartoon and given that it was geared towards a younger crowd, it should’ve viewed as such. But since the OS-is-the-only-ThunderCats fans compare them as equal all the time, so will I.
What LiamABC said about the hooks was incredibly accurate. There was never a moment where I felt even the slightest bit like the cats were in any actual danger. It was always Lion-O/the sword saving everything last-minute and everything was all happy and perfect again. And Mumm-Ra didn’t do anything different besides trying to trick the cats by persuasion or attacking theme itch his mutants, who were by far some ofthe most annoying characters in the show (not including Snarf). The action scenes were much longer and frequent than in the NS but there was no real depth to them. This is because, as stated earlier, they never lose.
Not to mention how all the “character development” everyone seemed to think existed in the OS was just a bunch of stereotypes. Lion-O was the perfect guy who could fix any situation, Tygra was a shy architect, Panthro a mechanic, Cheetara a feminist, and the twins were average kids who want to help but always end up getting in trouble. When compared to the new series, this isn’t even close. Character development is the growth of a character as they learn more and build up to be who they really are. Like how Lion-O started off as a hotheaded prince who was also somewhat unsure in himself that learned to be a better king as time went on and became a great leader. I’m only talking about this topic because people seem to think the OS actually had more character development.
I realize I’m speaking into a wall because I will never change anyone’s opinions, but if you can criticize a tv series, then so can I. And one last thing; I do enjoy the OS, but mainly as just a fun little cartoon I can watch occasionally. It does have redeeming qualities but is nothing compared to the NS in my view.
the new Toonami would be a great place to put the show..
No Toonami for me then. I don’t like staying up late and I have duties the next day to attend to. That’s just an objection for me unless they put it back at the old time during Saturday evenings years ago.
The same could be said of fans of the new series, particularly those for whom the new series is their point of entry to the franchise.
Moreover, not all reboots are created equal. The Mike Young Productions Masters of the Universe series was well-received and continues to be highly-regarded by fans. This is because it is faithful to the original source material. The reason there is much more dissent and push-back with regard to the new ThunderCats series is because it is such a big departure from the original.
Anyone who has watched the original series in sequential order cannot possibly state that the ThunderCats were never in any actual danger or that they always win.
In “Exodus” alone, Thundera explodes; the Mutants decimate the Thunderian fleet and the flagship carrying the ThunderCat nobles is crippled; Jaga dies piloting the ship to Third Earth where it crash lands; and the Mutants nearly kill the ThunderCats while they are asleep in the suspension capsules—and that is only the first episode.
As opposed to the “progressive” characterization of Cheetara and Pumyra in the new series? You may feel that the characterizations in the original series were tropes, but at least they were fully-realized characters. In the new series, Cheetara is nothing more than a cardboard cutout. Lion-O starts as an ineffectual leader because of his impetuous and rash decisions and ends an ineffectual leader because of his unwillingness to make difficult choices. I do not see that as character growth.
I agree. Also, how are those even Tropes, or Stereotypes?
The “Shy Architect?”:eek:
Can you give another example of that one?
What do you mean Lion-O had no character growth? I think he had plenty of it. While he starts out as being well meaning, he doesn’t always consider the consequences, which is why half the season deals with him learning to see the big picture. This way he better understands that all the peoples of Third Earth have to work together to defeat Mumm-Ra. The second half deals with him learning to be more responsible for his own people, thanks to Pumyra’s influence, even if she did betray him in the end. Lion-O’s resolve is tested when Pumyra fights him in the pit, his mercy pays off again, and him choosing to save Pumyra over the sword shows he does still care about his subjects.
Lion-O’s character development is tied to the major theme of the series, which is that showing kindness and compassion to others will lead to strong alliances that can overcome great odds. Thundera fell because of its mistreatment of the other animals. Lion-O’s destiny is to change this, and his character development reflects this. While he may lose at times, these are often short term losses, and his compassion often is what lets him win in the long run. If it wasn’t for all of his past actions, no one would have come to his aid in finale, and in the end he now has a lot more people supporting him in his quest.
Being able to see the big picture means being able to look towards the long term goals, and Lion-O is on the right path. He has not been ineffectual, and he has made hard decisions, even if it might take a while for them to pay off. If you’re thinking of his actions in the Tech Stone chamber, he did not waffle, he chose not to take it and it was the right choice. Stealing the stone and dooming Avista is what Mumm-Ra would have done. Choosing the Sword of Plundarr over Pumyra is what Mumm-Ra would have done, and Lion-O is not like that. Stealing the tech stone would have made the cats enemies of the birds, and might have even made them side with Mumm-Ra. But he didn’t and defended the city instead, and while Avista might have still fallen, he’s gained the trust of a new race who can help him. As for Pumyra, it might have turned out badly in the end, but perhaps another season might show some sort of long term effects saving her may have had.
If we had another season, I would say the next step in Lion-O’s development would be learning not to blame himself. There is a lot of stuff that has happened to him, and the fact is that he can’t control everything. Some things just happen, no matter how many precautions you make. He probably blames himself for Pumyra’s betrayal, but her betrayal didn’t come as just a shock to him but to the audience as well. Very few of us saw it coming. Maybe he’ll be more guarded in the future and less trusting, but it’s unlikely he could have foreseen Pumyra’s betrayal, so he should learn to not blame himself for it. I believe that, given the knowledge he had, Lion-O made the right decisions, and while he might start second guessing himself, he’ll eventually overcome his uncertainties.
And as for the original series characters, I marathon-ed the whole series a while back and there was barely any development. The new series characters have a lot more depth. Cheetara may be the flatest character in the new series, but I still think she has a little more depth than the OS Cheetara, basically because the new one actually has something of a back story and defined role as a Cleric and some romance with Tygra, as opposed to just being a noble. Hardly any OS ThunderCat had a back story, they were just there. NS Cheetara may not be as entertaining to watch as OS Cheetara, but she still had more substance in my opinion.
I do think the OS charcters were more strictly archetypes. And in mythology, archetypes resonant more deeply than regular characterizations due to the collective unconsciousness. Just saying.
MGP
You bring an interesting view to the table and i thank you for that.
If I may offer a rebuttal…
Pumyra didn’t even enter the second half of the season until midway through so intimating that she helped Lion-O in any way relearn the lesson he was taught in episode 3-16 strikes me more so as wishful ship thinking than anything else.
From the very first episode, Lion-O was the Cat showing kindness and compassion when no other Cat would. He was the one to stand up for the lizards and his standing up for them paid off. Lion-O’s mantra for roughly 15 episodes was “unite the animals” so he was already embodying the major theme of the reboot. When people point out the lack of Lion-O’s character growth, I believe they point to the fact that in the NS Lion-O would forget a lesson as quickly as he learned it and the fact that whenever Lion-O did learn something, Tygra was leveled up not long after to keep him superior to Lion-O. Many Thundercats fans didn’t want to see the main character constantly get upstaged by a supporting character and that turned them away from the series. In a way, the shows ratings reflected this fact in their constant decline.
Consider the video game Mega Man X. You get all these cool powers right off the bat but then you meet Vile and get your robotic blue butt handed to you until Zero arrives. Zero easily dispatches Vile and tells you that to win, you must become more powerful than he is. That establishes a set goal for the player. It gives them something to work toward.
What fun would the game be if Mega Man X never even came close to matching Zero? Players would have spent the game wondering why even have Mega Man X in the game when there was a stronger robot available.
That is the case with Lion-O. He is constantly made second fiddle to Tygra, never even coming close to matching the tiger in prowess let alone exceeding. IMO the crew made Lion-O a constantly underpowered Mega Man X while they made Tygra an overpowered Zero.
So when Lion-O is made to make the same mistakes over and over again, and forget lessons as quickly as he learns them, that isn’t really considered character growth by any means. Nor is it considered character growth when a main character is constantly upstaged by a supporting charater. The tragic fact is, character growth and development were two of the big things that got done wrong by the TC Crew. If the writing quality was as strong as the animation quality, I think Thundercats would still be airing.
When one looks at the OS, there is tons of character growth and development.
One of the prime examples takes place after the Cats land on Third Earth. Lion-O tries to use the Sword to kill an innocent creature and it doesn’t respond. Jaga appears and teaches Lion-O that life is precious and that the Sword will not kill needlessly. Lion-O learns the lesson and it sticks with him throughout the series.
Another example - Lion-O plays a bad trick on Snarf. Snarf gets massively upset. Lion-O learns to empathize and the lesson sticks with him.
Another example - Tower of Traps teaches all the Cats lessons in greed.
Trouble with Time teaches lessons in curiousity and care.
In the OS Cheetara was more developed than just a noble. Being a noble was part of her backstory of which we got more than NS Cheetara.
In addition to being a noble, she was an empath and to an extent, an oracle. She was the matronly figure of the Cats and a voice of reason and compassion. She was the womans view and voice.
In the NS all we got about Cheetara was that she might be an orphan (it was never verified or clarified) who wanted to be a Cleric. We never got any reason why.
Her role as a Cleric wasn’t that defined either. The most she has done in regards to being a Cleric was present Lion-O with the Sword and tap the crystal holding the SoP. That’s been about it. And let’s not forget episode 14 and her casting aside her duties as a Cleric in favor of Tygra. If she can discard her duties that easily, her role as a Cleric obviously didn’t mean that much to her to begin with.
Nor would I consider her relationship with Tygra much development because all that showed was that she was stuck in the past and based her choice on how he was in the past, not how he is in the present. (I still laugh at the fact that the Kittens openly favored and approved of a relationship between Lion-O and Cheetara in Journey but openly gagged and faux-vomitted seeing Tygra and Cheetara embrace in Alliances)
My opinion is that like Lion-O, NS Cheetara has suffered from character regression, not benefitted from character growth.
Here’s a question for you all. Especially those of you who are panning the new series.
Suppose you’d never seen the original series, and watched it for the first time as adults? Would we still fall in love with it now the way we did in the 1980s?
You can’t say “of course we would” - you can’t be that certain.
I rather suspect the answer might be “no”, because I didn’t see the second season until I was 26, when my best friend got the DVD for his birthday. I borrowed it, and watched it through twice, just to get a feel for it. Because the second season was never shown here in England originally. And having watched it, I can understand why. It’s extremely dodgy, for so many reasons:
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The Lunataks. In principle a good idea, bringing in a more effective group of villaint, but they were just so annoying.
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The whole “New Thundera” issue. As if breathing in outer space wasn’t dodgy enough, suddenly a whole destroyed planet sticks itself back together? (What about the piece of Thundera that crashed on Third Earth in “Lord Of The Snows”?) And by extension, the Thunderian refugees, all killed in the first episode. Zombies to a cat!
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The lessening of parts. Tygra’s absence from season 4 has been remarked upon many times, but Jaga’s part in the later series was mishandled. It got to the point where he was basically just saying, “use the catchphrase, Lion-O!” Which brings me to my main point:
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The increasing fix-all nature of the catcphrase. Yes, those words from Larry Kenney’s larynx are a great hook, and a chill comes down my spine when he delivers them, but the catchphrase got abused. There were some iffy moments in season 1 (none more so than the gratuitous use of it in “Excalibur” - as a flashback in Mumm-Ra’s cauldron), but “Exile Isle”, “Locket Of Lies”, “Bracelet Of Power”, “Return Of The Thundercubs” and “The Circuit Train” are just so many layers of wrong.
Pumyra was one of the first citizens the cats met who was most affected by the invasion and destruction of their home, and her anger at Lion-O is something he was going to have to deal with eventually. He might have gotten the main Cats to trust him as a leader by then, but having to deal with Pumyra was something different. She represented the people Lion-O was responsible for as a king instead of comrade in arms. It wasn’t something he was “relearning,” it was a reality that he had yet to deal with, that there’s more to his role as king than the quest he’s on; he has to take care of his people too, and Pumyra was a wake up call telling him it wouldn’t be easy to earn his people’s trust. He didn’t have to learn a new lesson from it, Lion-O’s already a caring guy, but he did have to be tested. Lion-O’s been accused of being an irresponsible slacker, and the test is to prove that he can man up when the time comes. While the trials might have tested Lion-O’s ability to think outside the box and his willingness to sacrifice his life for his friends, the episodes with Pumyra were a test to see if he could stick by his principles when they seemed foolish. It’s one thing to sacrifice your life for friends who are in danger, and it’s one thing to stand up against racism when that race doesn’t like you, but it’s another to be willing to give your life for someone who sees you as an enemy and wants you dead.
While Lion-O may have been caring from the start, that doesn’t mean he always believed that the animals had to unite together from the start. It only becomes apparent after he goes into the Book and sees how Leo did it. He already knew that compassion towards the other races was good, but he didn’t fully understand the bigger implications that had.
And I don’t see what you mean about Tygra leveling up. If you mean him beating Lion-O in their fight in the Astral Plane or Cheetara choosing him, that doesn’t have to do with any sort of character development Tygra went through. And besides, simply being a better fighter or having a better love life doesn’t make someone a better person. Even late into the series Tygra still shows some prejudice towards other races, which is counter to what Lion-O has been learning and preaching the whole time. Tygra may be stronger, but strength isn’t what’s going to win the war, it’s diplomacy and kindness, which Tygra lacks. Tygra is not the king they need, and being better, faster, and stronger isn’t going to help when Tygra can’t get any support because he’s too proud to treat the other races as equals and too close minded to see the big picture, which Lion-O can. That’s why he can’t use the Sword of Omens like Lion-O can. Learning a valuable life lesson isn’t going to necessarily make you a better fighter either. And by the way, I’ve seen Egoraptor’s video on Mega Man X too, and I think Lion-O’s as good a fighter as Tygra by now.
As for Lion-O forgetting his lessons, maybe we should analyze what lessons were supposedly learned and forgotten. I’m betting most of it refers to Lion-O always acting brashly. “Ramlak Rising,” “Old Friends,” “The Duelist and the Drifter,” and “Sight Beyond Sight” are the major examples, and you could argue that the lesson he keeps forgetting is to stop and think before he takes action. I believe however that each of these instances of brashness are caused by different factors and shouldn’t all be judged the same way.
“Ramlak” is his first instance, so he gets a pass. That one was caused by anger and a drive for revenge. I believe Lion-O’s stand against the lizards at the end of “Petalars” was caused by him realizing they couldn’t keep running forever, and couldn’t find the book until they dealt with the pursuers. In “Old Friends” Lion-O doesn’t listen to Panthro and gets himself into trouble when he attacks the lizards. I see this as Lion-O acting out of frustration over Panthro’s disobedience. It’s true that he still needed to earn it and prove himself, but Panthro wasn’t being very cooperative either. “Duelist” has Lion-O betting the sword out of pride and misplaced confidence, but at the same time it shows he’s not willing to give up when the chips are down. “Sight” has Lion-O getting rid of the bugs because he thought he was doing something good for the elephants.
While all these instances can be argued to be Lion-O forgetting the same lesson, I see it more as Lion-O learning to better control his different emotions. Lion-O isn’t the first character in any medium to make more than one mistake, and really, doesn’t every mistake basically boil down to not thinking things through enough, or just lacking a clear understanding? Even Zuko from Avatar The Last Airbender still made a mistake at the end of the second season after all his character development, but that didn’t nullify it as we saw. We all know people in real life who might sometimes make the same mistake twice. I simply think that the situations Lion-O was in could be seen as being different enough that he wouldn’t recognize the same problems occurring. As for what happened in “Trials Part 1” when he led them up the mountain, I don’t believe he was acting brashly. I felt those scenes made the other cats a little too hard and didn’t clearly explain why they thought it was a bad idea, and I believe they really could have, but I don’t see it as any sort of regression on Lion-O’s part.
Now, if you’re referring to Lion-O not remembering the lesson the Drifter taught him, I don’t consider that a lack of development for Lion-O’s actual character and personality. I see it more as the animation directors not being able to do many good fight scenes in general. As for why Lion-O couldn’t beat Tygra in a sword fight after that, and why Lion-O told Tygra the Sword of Omens couldn’t be beaten when the “Duelist” episode proved otherwise, my theory is that Lion-O was trying to bluff, and he lost because he was holding back throughout the fight while Tygra wasn’t. Plus, I don’t see Lion-O having gained some whole new secret skill in “Duelist” that he just forgot about, I think he just learned a different way to fight in a purely combative sense. He used his own agility in the rematch against the Duelist, not that semi-magical floating the Drifter was using. Besides, it’s unrealistic to think he would become that much better after that. I think he won mostly because he was able to surprise the Duelist, who probably is used to challenging amateurs. I do believe Lion-O does become a better fighter though. His first fight with Mumm-Ra he does badly, but by the finale he proves to be much more capable, even when Mumm-Ra has the Sword of Plundarr.
For me, Lion-O changed by the end of the series. He became more calm and diplomatic, he stopped butting heads with Tygra, and he got over his crush on Cheetara. While Pumyra may have betrayed him, I see Lion-O’s crush on her to be an example of Lion-O developing a better sense of what he finds attractive in a woman and a better respect for them. With Cheetara, he liked her because of how supportive and touchy she was with him, but with Pumyra he liked her because of her basic personality, and not with how she looked or how she treated him. A lot of people accuse Lion-O of objectifying Cheetara, and I can see that, but if that’s true, I think him falling in love with Pumyra for the kind of person she is shows how much Lion-O’s grown.
It really bothered me when fans bashed Lion-O for being sore at Cheetara for what happened. He wasn’t just mad at her decision, or just being jealous, he was mad at himself for not seeing it, and he was mad because he felt like someone he thought was close is now someone he can’t really trust. He never gave Tygra a hard time about Cheetara choosing him because it wasn’t Tygra’s fault. When Lion-O wanted to save the captured lizards, he wasn’t simply mad at Cheetara for siding with Tygra, he was mad because Cheetara wasn’t supporting his mission to unite the animals, when she had been so supportive of him so much in the past. It felt like both Tygra and Cheetara just weren’t getting that they needed to be willing to fight for the lizards too. And he did not leave Tygra to die when Kaynar captured him; I thought he was planning on freeing Tygra. To me, this is a lot of character depth, but most fans don’t see it that way. They expect simplistic characterization, so they just assume Lion-O is being a jealous jerk.
Overall by the end of the series he seemed to be acting less like a kid on a quest and more like a responsible adult, and even if he acted like a lovestruck kid around Pumyra for an episode, it’s a big step up from him bragging to Tygra about getting a kiss from Cheetara.
And the ratings did not decline, especially not because of Lion-O supposedly always getting upstaged by Tygra. I’ve been keeping up with the ratings ever since the show premiered and they always held steady and were very close to similar shows on CN such as Young Justice. Where people get the idea that the ratings were ever bad I have no idea. It sounds like some stupid rumor being spread that’s being used as an excuse instead of analyzing other reasons the show might have been canceled for. They did not get bad ratings, but maybe just not ratings good enough to justify the cost. In which case, I would be more likely to blame the animation costs or the failure to promote the show so they could actually get more ratings.
I find many of the character development examples from the OS to be too obvious, and I don’t think any of those lessons actually had any dramatic affect on the characters. I never thought any of the characters were greedy before Tower of Traps, and Lion-O never seemed to play thoughtless pranks before he played a trick on Snarf. As for Lion-O using the sword to hunt, that was one extremely brief instance done in a very unsubtle manner which seemed to demonstrate an aspect of the sword more than any major change in Lion-O’s character. What character development there was was done very early on and just for Lion-O. Otherwise, every character seemed to stay the same from the first episode to the last. The only exception I can think of is OS Tygra, and revealing a little more about his inner personality, but I can only think of two episodes like that, and he didn’t seem to change that much save for his last appearance.
OS Cheetara hardly changed either. We got a few episodes about her oracle powers, but they never really resonated beyond those episodes. I never got a good impression of why she was there other than to be the lady of the team. I could understand the basic concept of her personality, but nothing really interesting aside from the oracle powers which were only brought up occasionally. And I can’t say she was the voice of reason and compassion when the other cats were usually just as reasonable and compassionate as she was.
NS Cheetara, I believe, captures a lot of the same basic personality the OS version had, but because of her revealed back story I have a better guess as to why she is that way. I figure that as an orphan she felt very alone and was rather desperate for some kind of affection and close interraction with people. Tygra’s flower really did leave a huge impression on her, and being a student of Jaga probably is what made her a very affectionate and supportive person, which could explain her actions around Lion-O.
I believe that Cheetara does have more depth because I see her fall out with Lion-O to be an instance her her having a legitimate character flaw, and that’s the way she didn’t recognize how she might be misleading him. It’s not all her fault, Lion-O shares some of the blame too, but it is something she had a hand in. She did what she thought was right, but went too far. I think a problem in this case is a lot of fans try to put all the blame on one or the other. Bashing Cheetara isn’t right, but she isn’t perfect, and this imperfection is what gives her character more depth. Perhaps the writing didn’t handle her character that well, but I can interpret what the writers may have been going for.
There is a difference between a character that has depth and a character that develops and a character that is likable. I think in this age of cartoons too many fans have an unrealistic view of what a well developed character should be. They like characters who have depth, but not ones with negative flaws. If a character has a flaw, most fans want it to be harmless, something that might hold them back but not something too unhealthy, and they never want the hero to ever do something that’s actually bad for more than one episode. I think fans always want characters that they can be certain about. It’s like fans expect characterization and development to be spoon fed to them in separate portions, instead of having to think about it over the course of several episodes.
I think that’s why ThunderCats characterizations frustrates so many people, because when they have flaws they have real flaws that often affect the plot. We know Tygra is a good guy, but it’s frustrating to see him act like a jerk and be prejudiced, and a lot of people simply can’t accept that. I think a lot of fans would prefer it if Tygra become more entirely good, but I feel that would take away some of his own depth. Even in highly acclaimed series like Legend of Korra this pops up. Mako gets bashed all the time for his actions within the love triangle. They may not be exemplary, but they aren’t unrealistic, and some fans simply can’t accept that Mako is that flawed.
You don’t have to like it just because he’s a good guy, but you can hope that he develops out of it. In the comic I’m working on, I’m at least going to try and develop Tygra out of his major flaws without changing his personality too much. Even then, I feel he’s had some big developments in the series already, mostly having to do with overcoming his own pride. When a character does act badly, so many people are quick to call it bad characterization instead of at least trying to see it as just another aspect of that character, something which is not unrealistic. Real people are often very complicated, and I can accept complicated cartoon characters. Even when fans of a show like Avatar claim that there’s great characterization, I don’t always see those characters as being very hard to understand. A well rounded character doesn’t just show every emotion in the spectrum. They can contradict themselves and make mistakes even after a string of successes. It’s realistic, and whether or not you like a character to be realistically flawed and really have to work to change instead of simply having a flaw that’s cured in one episode is up to you.
I’ve noticed is that a character can get away with having little development as long as they are likable, entertaining, and show even a little depth. They never need to change because fans like them already. I see characters such as Panthro and Toph to be like this. People like them just the way they are. I think if they had made given NS Cheetara a stronger personality that was more entertaining to watch, or at least show things from her perspective more, there would be less complaint about her. I do think she’s the weakest main character, but as you can see I don’t think she devoid of depth.
Oh, for gawd’s sakes, men. Arguing in paragraph form now?
I know that this is just your opinion, but as a really huge fan of the original show, I just felt the unusual need to point out some key points about why the old show should not just get thrown under the bus.
To say that the new series “completely destroys the old series in every aspect” is a pretty harsh statement even for an opinion and kind of comes off as about as short-sited as Lion-O at the beginning of the NS. I can totally understand where that comes from, though because the new series is pretty awesome in its own rite–actual backstories that make the TCats a bit more interesting than their OS counterparts, villains that are actually deplorable and threatening, an overall story that’s pretty easy and engaging to follow, and surprises that you almost didn’t see coming.
However, the OS had plenty of fine qualities of its own that (if you really stop to think about it) just did not exist in many other cartoons for that time period, which is what made it such a hit back then in comparison to the show now (which if you really think about it doesn’t offer anything new in the slightest compared to the current television line up).
Watch the OS from the very beginning, and you will see that it had an awesome story that it stuck to from the very first episode:
*Thundera explodes, and the TCats have to find a new home.
*The mutants attack, take out the Thunderian fleet, and then cause damage to the main ship. This forces Jaga to sacrifice himself so that the other Thundercats can survive and make the journey to Third Earth in suspended animation.
*They crash land on Third Earth, Lion-O’s capsule having been a bit defaulty, and from that point on it is a struggle for all of the TCats to learn about their new world and survive.
That is the whole first season, and they do a darn good job with that story. The OS had a wonderful blend of character, world, events, and overall plot; and it had a TON of dialogue that was just pure awesome. (Mumm-Ra was a king at dishing them out. And the Mutants could be pretty sarcastic and clever themselves…as could Lion-O. Plenty of wit there.) And as for the animation, go back and watch the OS. Pay attention to what they do with the scenes, and you will find things that they just don’t do anymore. (Or at least as far as I’ve seen.) Some parts of the scene being in focus while the others are out of focus and don’t come into focus until they are relevant, character quirks like Panthro taking a large pipe and straightening it while discussing a logical assessment of their equipment situation, Mumm-Ra’s inhuman yet somewhat playful movements as he talked to himself or other characters, animations that were specific to each character and things that they remembered to do with them on a regular basis (at least in the first season)-- I call that good animation. Great animation in fact.
Sure. It might not have been as dramatic as what the NS gives us…but then…it didn’t need that type of theater to be a good show. Because they stuck to a simple story, it had what it needed to work and be a great cartoon. It allowed for more flexibility with what the characters could do day-to-day without breaking away from the primary plot. In every episode, Lord Lion-O not only learned something new about the new world’s people, places, and dangers, but he also learned much about himself and stuck to what he learned like glue. He, and we for that matter, also learned a little bit more about their primary threat, Mumm-Ra who (when we overlook his initial self-hatred to the point that his own reflection was…terrible) was a bigger monster than what they had ever faced before. (He elbows a tree in half in the second episode; Lion-O does the same, but he is so terrified of Mumm-Ra that he probably would have been defeated right then and there…had Mumm not been defeated by his reflection.. >_>) Because they learned about Mumm-Ra, his later defeats became more believable.
In other words, everything added up over time. The OS was great. Now, it kind of suffered a bit in its Second season which is where the TCats themselves were at their flattest and the initial story was pretty much gone. New Thundera and the Treasure was somewhat of a story…but it just did not have the struggle of the first 65 episodes. In fact, I’m pretty certain that I watch the second season only because it became Mumm-Ra’s struggle at that point more than the Thundercats’s…and he was/is my favorite character.
The NS has many great elements, and that is what I love about it. What I don’t love about it is the handling of those elements. We see wonderful animation–great action, great color, great world-- with a potentially classic and great story, but the overall story is just not supported as it needs to be, and that is my problem with the new series. It feels an awful lot like the show is saying
"Okay, there is going to be this awesome war between the Thundercats and Mumm-Ra!
“But before we get to that, we need do something else first that will make the actual conflict seem awesome when we finally get there. And I hope that you get that when it happens.”
I read once that they were aiming for the show to have the feel of a movie… Well…there are certain things that work well for movies and not for serial cartoon shows.
It just feels weak to me. The story was supposed to be, based on the first two episodes, the evil Mumm-Ra and the Lizard army versus the good (but not perfect) Thundercats. For me, that is the overall struggle that should have been in every episode, and it was not; the power stones became a sub-plot, but they weren’t the main story and should not have been.
Some may consider this a good thing, the villains not showing up and losing in every episode, but there is a reason why this formula works when effectively used. Just look at Avatar, the Last Airbender as an example; it has the same story and appeals to kids–the underdog heroes versus the big bad villains which was the Fire Nation, and only the Avatar can bring peace and balance. Only Lion-O can master the Sword of Omens and defeat evil Mumm-Ra.
It’s a classic formula and a formula that works, but the difference is that Avatar had the main characters facing off with the main villains almost every episode, reminding us that their primary threat was indeed still potent; whereas, the Thundercats just didn’t seem to have that or at least not the amount that is needed to make me believe it. Also, Lion-O’s supposed training with his Sword of Omens is heavily downplayed; it’s supposed to be more than just a tool according to Anet. It still feels just like a tool in every episode after that. It really does. I get no sense of harmony with the weapon whatsoever, and it makes the actual training episodes feel a little bit useless and pointless really, which is a shame because those were some of the best episodes.
Not only is the story weak for me, but the characters seem flat and disconnected from the plot entirely as well. It really just feels that, aside from Lion-O, the other characters are just…there…following him around as they try to figure out what they need to do. In other words, they are boring. They have no more personality than what their original counterparts had. In fact, the originals might have even had more. I will try to explain this because I am not saying that the new characters don’t have better stories centered around them. They do by far, but their personalities are still boring as all get out because they lack mistakes and flaws to make them interesting (excluding Lion-O, Snarf, and the Thunderkittens).
Tygra, for example, is an angry jerk who is a perfectionist and feels that he is better than his brother at pretty much everything from thinking to swordplay. He definitely seems to be. He supposedly has a softer side as well but is good at hiding it except from Cheetara and possibly Lion-O. He has a great backstory, probably one of the best backstories and is a great character.
He does nothing most episodes; the only time he made a mistake or was interesting was when he became king or when the episode was centered around his story. But in relation to the overall plot, he’s just a background fighter most of the time and mostly spent time arguing with his brother in the beginning. And I really just didn’t feel more than that. He can be jerky and condescending to others but not as much as he is to his brother, which makes him boring for me.
Cheetara is even worse. She has a backstory. So what. A backstory does not make the character. The character’s actions because of that backstory does along with the character’s actions because of the current story. She fights. Big deal. So do the others. She has no personality. She is there to be expository just as Tygra is only there to provide conflict for his brother (which isn’t bad…but it isn’t good either) just as Panthro is only there for the Thundertank and to be somewhat comical…and to be the bruiser.
One of the reasons Recipe for Disaster is one my favorite eps of the new season is because it has everything that the show had been missing for me entirely–the character quirks, the interactions, and the connection to the overall plot of Mumm-Ra versus the Thundercats, which is supposed to be the story moreso than the collection of the powerstones is. If I watch the NS from beginning to end, it’s boring because the main story just isn’t there.
I am not saying that the NS is a bad series. It is not. It’s a great series with plenty of potential and with the ability to pick itself up if given the chance. It has characters with interesting backstories, but they are still kind of flat. It has a world that is just as diverse and unique as the original, but it’s not explored as much. It has great villains, but they don’t show up as they need to.
It’s a good show, but it is far from perfect.
Just as the OS had its weaknesses, so does this new series, and that is all I wish to stress. It is not better by any means. It’s just different. And if it is the type of different that you like, then fine. Just don’t throw the OS under the bus because it was great too. It was awesome. If it hadn’t been…well…there would probably be no Thundercats 2011.
I love both shows, but the original just cannot be beat out as my favorite.
And that is all. I could get into character comparisons and why I think OS Mumm-Ra is better than the new one, but I actually have work in the next hour and a half. I’ll save that book for some other day.
wow, mad writing here.:o
Beats the alternative of arguing in song form.
Or arena form: (well maybe not)http://www.startrek.com/uploads/assets/articles/Kirk-Vs-Gorn---Arena---S1-ep181.jpg
