I have to blow off some steam!

Cartoons ThunderCats (2011)
1

I know, we’ve been over this, but i have to get this out. I have a few gripes about the way this show treats Lion-O.

1. This whole “Lion-O’s come along way since the trials” thing - I agree, Lion-O’s made some improvement since the Trials, but the way everyone talks, you’d think Lion-O was a horrible king before the trials. He wasn’t that bad, in fact, i did the math, Lion-O only made 6 mistakes in the course of 15 episodes (which isn’t really saying much). And frankly, the other Cats weren’t making the situation easy for him

2. Whenever Lion-O goes through a rough time, everyone’s sympathy is usually directed towards someone else. In “Between Brothers” Tygra basically allowed his jealousy and envy to make him attack Lion-O. I don’t care if Tygra did decide to help Lion-O at the last second, what he did was still TREASON, and Lion-O just let it slide! What’s more, after Tygra nearly killed Lion-O and the young king still got burned at the end, everyone’s still felt more emotion for Tygra.

Yes, yes, i know, I saw what happened in “Native Son”; Tygra lost his people, he never knew his father, boo hoo. But no matter how much i think about that, my sympathy is reserved for Lion-O.

Tygra may have lost his clan, but Lion-O was virtually shunned by his. Tygra may have lost his real father, but Lion-O was never accepted by his. (Seriously, what kind of good father openly favors one son over the other?) And what’s worse, Lion-O was probably blamed for his mother’s death. Plus, Tygra never hesitated to make life hard for Lion-O all because he thought he was better, yet through all of that, we’re expected to believe they’re close.

They didn’t even give us an episode where Tygra is made king and he turns out to be worse at it that Lion-O. No, they still make it seem like Tygra was the better choice.

Plus, the other Cats weren’t exactly on Lion-O side in the first part of the Trials arc, it really looked like they were intentionally giving him a hard time, yet in part two, suddenly everyone’s nice to him.

And now there’s this, Pumyra blames Lion-O for what happened to her and everyone who saw that episode seems to agree with her. Lion-O didn’t abandon anyone, (he probably didn’t even know there were any refugees), and after he is beaten within an inch of his life, we’re told Pumyra forgave him, even though he technically did nothing wrong.

2

My replies:

  1. Lion-O has gotten so much crap the whole season. I agree with you to an extent, because the other cats were just as stressed out as him. Since they were used to living easily, they expected Lion-O to be able to solve stuff like his father, who actually died trying to solve his problems. Also, no one said he was a bad king, nor was it ever implied. There is always room for improvement in everything you do.

  2. This is where I completely disagree. The only hard part for Lion-O in “Between Brothers” was the fact that he had to get the stone. He couldn’t really lose Cheetara because he never really had her, so how were they supposed to show him sympathy for being confused?

Also, Tygra was a terrible king in the trials! Besides escaping from the generals, he basically led them on a hastily-thought up suicide mission into the pyramid and ended up getting captured. I actually thought that episode almost made Lion-O look too good. Also, Lion-O was never blamed for his mother’s death. His dad also only said he wished Lion-O was more on time like Tygra. He even defended Lion-O on several occasions.

The deal with Pumyra is just because of her ignorance. She just blamed the easiest person only to realize later that it wasn’t Lion-O’s fault at all. She even forgave him for everything in “Birth of the Blades”. The point is she realized her faults and was sorry for them.

I think you’re not viewing several aspects of the show correctly. Sure, it’s not as Lion-O centered as the OS, but the show is about the other cats too. If Lion-O won every fight and was loved by everyone, it would be incredibly boring and non-eventful. The show is ThunderCats, not Lion-O. While I do think he should be the center of attention, the show has done a great job of showing us the other cats.

3

Uh, Tygra busted Lion-O’s chops every moment, assaulted him, accused him of “taking everything”, even though Tygra was the one making Lion-O’s life harder in my opinion, and even knocked him into a well and admitted that he thought about leaving him in there the first time. It took Lion-O pleading to convince him to help and frankly, that doesn’t speak much for Tygra’s sense of compassion. As far as the “losing Cheetara” thing goes, i know that Cheetara always liked Tygra, but the way things turned out, it’s still rather sad for Lion-O (and it all could’ve been avoided if either Tygra or Cheetara told him just how they knew each other).

Oh, come now, the most defense Claudus gave Lion-O was telling Grune that he would also make a great king after Grune commended Tygra. And afterwards, when the Lizards attacked he blamed the mess on Lion-O, forbade him from joining the fight and even said that “It’s no wonder the people think Tygra would be a better king”. Seriously, Claudus sounded like he was ready to renounce Lion-O’s claim to the throne. Also, i recommend you look at Claudus and Tygra’s pages on the Thundercats Wikia website. There they actually say that Claudus openly favored Tygra and that Tygra resentment towards Lion-O partially stems from his adopted mother’s death. The way things look, it feels like while everyone else had someone close in their past (even Panthro had Grune and Dobo), Lion-O had no one, not even his own parents were willing to make his life less lonesome.

And that right there is the problem; she forgave him? What has he really done that makes him need her forgiveness? He did nothing, he had nothing to do with the Fall of Thundera and the slaves should count themselves lucky that he was even alive to come for them at all.

I’m just mentioning what i see, if i were in Lion-O’s shoes (so to speak) i don’t know if would have any mercy or kindness left to give anyone, especially not after living a life where none of it was given to me. How does he still manage to be the nice guy?

4

Well, what was she supposed to do? Just say “Oh yeah, you didn’t do anything” ??? She was apologizing for [B]her own actions, not Lion-O’s[/B]. The slaves should count themselves lucky that he came to free them, but that doesn’t mean 100% of them still trust him. Sure, their distrust is unjustified, but they were forced into tunnels and were taken captive after the fall. They probably decided that it was Lion-O’s fault, immediately linking Lion-O’s freeing of the lizards to the invasion.

As with the other points about Tygra, the Wikia page highly over-exaggerates a lot of things. they’ve had Cheetara listed as Tygra’s mate for a few months, and I’m pretty sure they’re just boyfriend and girlfriend. Anyway, I think the show is supposed to show growth in all characters. Lion-O being a calm, collected king after all he has been through and Tygra getting over his grudge against Lion-O just show that they are all settling their differences to come together and fight evil. Like I said before, it would be boring if everyone was perfect and got along like brothers and sisters.

You also have to take people for who they are. Tygra is cynical, no matter what situation. This doesn’t cover up how he tried to kill Lion-O (or at least defeat him), but he said in the episode that Mumm-Ra was fueling their betrayal. Considering how much Mumm-Ra can already do, it wouldn’t surprise me if he somehow controlled Tygra’s mind. Also, I don’t think Lion-O tried his hardest in the battle against Tygra because he didn’t want to hurt his brother or a fellow cat (much like Pumyra). After “Between Brothers”, Tygra was pretty much over his grudge. His taunting in the first part of the trials was only trying to teach Lion-O something. Even WilyKit and Kat tried to teach him! Lion-O, on the other hand, tends to take things really hard, at least before the trials. Even though Cheetara’s excuse for her teasing wasn’t the best, he could have behaved a little better. The trials made him realize that he needed to calm down and use his mind before he acts.

In conclusion, Lion-O has a lot of things against him, but most of them have been dissolved or too minor that he just got over it. Tygra’s behavior is just how he is. He hasn’t changed at all the whole series, except for dissolving his rivalry with Lion-O. Lion-O is getting much stronger and smarter as the episodes go on, and we’ll see him mature as the series goes on.

5

I have to agree with Srebak, on all points. :slight_smile:

6

I agree that Lion-O has been handled roughly throughout the series, and unfairly at times. It may be for the best, however.

I remember watching the OS as a kid and getting very fed up with Lion-O because he always seemed to come out on top. Everyone worshiped the ground he walked on; enemies fell at his feet; Mumm-Ra never won; etc. It got annoying after a while and I remember thinking “Why can’t he mess up and lose every once in a while? He’d be so much more interesting.”

Well, I got more than I bargained for in the NS, where he has become the scapegoat for every bad thing that happens to everyone. But dealing with it has made him a much more interesting and respectable character. Ever since “Trials Part 2”, he has been a much different person and his willingness to take responsibility for things (even when it’s not his fault) makes him shine that much brighter compared to everyone else.

I expect this trend to continue and in the last four episodes, we will see him vindicated and finally given the respect he deserves.

7

As to the point that Tygra got off scott free at the end of Between Brothers; he was being manipulated by Mumm-Ra. They both were, and they admitted as much after they made up. I’m sick and tired of people blaming that whole scene on Tygra when they specifically state, in the episode, that it was Mumm-Ra’s influence that drove them both to fight.

On the other hand I agree that the writers are a bit rough on Lion-O sometimes in this show. But I don’t like how in some of the early episodes he was a bit of a jerk sometimes and made stupid mistakes. I’m ok with him making mistakes, don’t get me wrong, but some of the ones he made were doozeys.

Also who cares what the Thundercats wiki says. It’s completely written by fans, not the show’s crew. You can only quote the show and what the crew has said as cannon.

8

Despite their differences, Tygra and Lion-O will always be brothers.

9

Ok, now I have to blow off some steam myself. I was determined to say a word as this subject has been treated a lot on the boards and it’s getting old, but it really p***es me off.

It’s really getting tiring how people make up a whole life of suffer for Lion-o, and most of all, blame it all on Tygra.

Again, Claudus never favored Tygra. The fact that he thought Tygra had better qualities to be king doesn’t mean he wanted Tygra to be king. Think of the elections (and I’m going to be completely hypothetical here): you can be a democrat, thus wanting Obama to win, but you can listen to Romney’s speeches and think “wow, this guy could be a very good president, maybe even better than Obama”. Does that mean you don’t want Obama to be the president anymore? No. Just because you realize someone has qualities to be leader/king, and you think he’d be good at it, doesn’t mean you don’t think another guy could be as well. Claudus never said “Tygra should be king” or “I want Tygra to be king”. He just said Lion-o should be more like Tygra: responsible, serious, concerned about state matters, in order to be a better king than he could already be. Was that Tygra’s fault? No. If any, it was Lion-o’s own fault for being so lazy and childish.

And I never saw Claudus favoring Tygra, neither having nice words to him as he had for Lion-o. From “Native Son” it was clear to me that Claudus was never really excited about Tygra. He couldn’t even comfort him when his mother died. On the other hand, he was really excited about finally having a heir.

I’m sorry, but I really can’t see how Lion-o’s life was harder than Tygra’s. Lion-o never lost anything because he never had it. He didn’t lose a mother, and he never lost a father because Claudus had his back always, as did Tygra (he said it in the pilot). Tygra lost his clan, his mother, his kingdom, and as I see it, his adoptive father as well. Tygra had to work hard and become what expected of him, even if that meant sacrificing his true self (he seemed an spontaneous little tiger), to gain Claudus’ attention, which he would never get over Lion-o. I think that’s why Tygra tried so hard to please Claudus, because deep inside, Claudus only had eyes for Lion-o, and Tygra was scared to lose him too.

Besides, remember pride is a tiger’s main trait. How proud do you think Tygra felt living second to Lion-o? It definitely was hard for him.

Now, what happened between the brothers when they were kids was what happens between regular brothers. And Lion-o has been shown to be really mean and cruel himself at Tygra sometimes. In fact, Tygra has been shown to be more supportive and encouraging to Lion-o than Lion-o has been to him. “Trials part 2” made it very clear: Lion-o was his worst enemy. He didn’t succeed not because of Tygra but because of himself. As for what happened in the Astral Plane, Balgus already said it.

Also, Tygra didn’t steal Cheetara from Lion-o. Cheetara made her choice. Tygra was even resigned to lose her. On the other hand, Lion-o did “play dirty” whining with Cheetara about how mean Tygra had been to him all those years to earn her favor.

It bothers me that people keep treating Lion-o as the sick child, the nerd boy, the poor victim, the weakling or whatever, and blaming Tygra for it on top of everything. Tygra did what was expected of him, Lion-o didn’t. So it’s not Tygra’s fault that Lion-o is like he is and recieved the treatment he got. He took his own decissions and was judged for them. And Lion-o has flaws too.

It seems to me that the so-called Lion-o fans can only highlight his good sides by trashing Tygra. Lion-o has his own strengths, and they’re starting to show up. The fact that his fans keep bringing up Tygra’s flaws, mistakes, insecurities, etc and saying “Lion-o is not like him” only proves that they are not sure themselves about Lion-o.[FONT=&quot]
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10

^Exactly what I think. I’m very neutral when it comes to Lion-O and Tugra and I think they both have their good and bad traits, but it’s just who they are and the traits are not shown by putting down one character. Lion-O had it rough, but so did Tygra. Every character has. It’s not like Lion-O was the only one that suffered.

Anyway, that was a much needed post.

11

Whilst I see your point in how Liono and Tygra are treated bad etc, I think its more a case of throwing hardships at them to make them come through stronger. I mean where would Hercules be without his trials, right? Its a common theme in so many genres, throw hardships at the hero/heroes, have them struggle and come through it, emerge victorious as better people.

This is how the series has progressed, it has shown how Liono, and Tygra too to a slightly lesser extent, have come through all of these things and are slowly becoming better people for it.

And I don’t think Liono was ever seen as a ‘horrible king’, mostly due to the fact he was never a king, just a slightly spoilt prince with a different ideology to his father. When he became king, I think the team, Panthro in particular, saw him as a boy who needed to earn the experience and respect that it would take to be king, and that is what we have seen him do over the course of the series.

Tygra was the second in line to the throne, and he obviously had issues with his brother on that and other things, we’ve also seen them both work through this throughout the series, and whilst they may not be 100% there yet, they have both made significant progress in bonding as brothers.

As for Pumyra, her attitude was there to show how many 'commoners’or average Thunderians may have felt about the royal family and the fall of Thundera. Liono accepted that blame because as a king, he takes things very personally, he blames himself when it was not his blame to take, which can be the mark of a good leader. I know it seemed a bit stunted due to the limited time slots, but it wasn’t so much ‘forgiveness’ on her part as it was a realisation that her opinion might be wrong and that Liono is a good king who cares about his people. This is a very realistic interpretation about what happens when things go wrong. For example if that happened in our own country, many of us would probably have some anger towards the politicians, right?

I think the character progression in this series has been fantastic (with the exception of Cheetara who needs a couple of episodes devoted to her now). I think by the end of the next season, we’ll see much stronger individual characters as each one has grown, and a much stronger team dynamic too.

12

Great post. You have managed to present what a lot of fans are feeling and thinking.
Unfortunetly, all the Tygraholics on this site are going to crawl out of the woodwork now and go on the attack because you posted an opinion that doesn’t portray him as Gary-Stu GodFigure.

Even with the haters hatin, stand tall and stand proud Srebak. This tough old cuss will stand by you.
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You must have watched a different OS than everyone else. I recall many episodes where Lion-O was hard pressed and had to use the sword to call in the rest of the Thundercats. Characters like Willa and Snowman had to be won over; they didn’t instantly bow down to Lion-O. If Mumm-Ra “won” there wouldn’t have been a show. As it stands, Mumm-Ra’s OS “win” record was actually rather impressive.

I do agree with you about the scapegoat but in many ways, I see that still continuing. While Lion-O’s character has grown since Trials, most of the others have not. Tygra is still the same emo Twilight clone, Panthro is still Panthro just with Stretchy arms, and Cheetara has regressed to nothing more than Tygra’s armcandy cheerleader.

Heck, even the Forever Bag episode showed the kittens are growing as characters.

The problem is, if the crew waits too long to vindicate Lion-O, they won’t have much of an audience left.
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Just because Mumm-Ra’s influence caused them to fight doesn’t mean the issues weren’t already there. All Mumm-Ra did was bring to the surface what already existed in the heart and mind. The fact is, if Tygra didn’t have that misplaced hate toward his brother, Mumm-Ra wouldn’t have had anything to work with.

So yeah, Tygra takes the Bakers Dozen share of the blame because if that darkness wasn’t in him, Mumm-Ra wouldn’t have been able to manipulate it.

It’s funny to read you crying about “earlier episodes” when you’ve gone on so much about character growth of which Lion-O and the Kittens seem to be the only ones experiencing it.

Yes, Lion-O was brash, and headstrong early on. He was going through some serious motions such as grieving. Not to mention, he suddenly had this great weight thrust upon him and for the most part, had to really deal with it on his own.

A lot of people put stock in Wiki. Mostly because you can verify source material for much of what is said due to provided citations. And since much of what certain crew members say has been taken to task and found lacking, crew members aren’t really a good source for canon information.

13

Um, no, I watched the same OS as everyone else. I just had a different take-away from it than you did. All I remember is Lion-O and the cats having a good laugh at the end of every episode because they managed to get through another round of hijinks with nary a scratch. I don’t ever remember Lion-O ending an episode in the OS with the same dejected look his NS counterpart had at the end of “New Alliances.”

On this point I concur. Mumm-Ra wasn’t around the first time Tygra kicked his brother into a well. He might have set the stage on the Astral Plane and provided the props to exploit that mutual resentment, but he didn’t write the script for what Tygra did. That was all on him.

14

Well srebac, I did warn you the Thgraholics would take serious issue with your post.

Even though it was shown that Claudus openly favored Tygra, they’ll deny it because it casts a bad shadow on their Twilight mentality. Not once was Claudus shown favoring anything Lion-O did. Not once was he shown even making a passing remark that Lion-O would be a good king.

The entire reason Tygra looked the better for kingship was because his petty jealousy, many mental issues, and undue hate of his brother drove him to make Lion-O look bad in everything he did. From the get-go, Tygra was out to sabotage his brother for imagined wrongs Lion-O had no part of or control over.

“Lion-o never lost anything because he never had it” And that is exactly why his life was harder.
Ever hear the old saying “tis better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all”

Tygra knew the love and respect of a father, Lion-O did not. Tygra knew a mothers love, Lion-O did not. What kingdom did Tygra lose? Thundera wasn’t ‘his’ kingdom and the traitorous tiger clan lived in a mountain cave; one can hardly call that a kingdom. And as was clearly shown in the pilot, Claudus had his eye on Tygra more than Lion-O. The only reason tygra worked so hard was to constantly show Claudus and the kingdom that he was better than Lion-O.

Hate to tell you kid but most regular brothers don’t try to kill each other by kicking a log and forcing them to fall into a pit.

Really mean and cruel to Tygra? Provide your supporting evidence please because you are seeing something that 99.9% are not. Same with the whole “Tygra is more supportive of Lion-O” bit - please provide your evidence because that is a really weak statement you made.

I somewhat agree that in Trials, much of Lion-O’s defeat was his own fault. But at the same time, much of it is also Tygra’s for belittling Lion-O for so many years Lion-O couldn’t help but have self-doubt.
Again, as we all saw in the pilot, the entire kingdom pretty much wanted Tygra as king. Lion-O knew that. How easy do you think it is to believe in yourself when you have an entire kingdom not believing in you?

As for what happened in the Astral Plain, Blagus had his illogical excuses poked so full of holes it didn’t fall apart, it shattered.

Tygra didn’t steal Cheetara but that doesn’t take away from the fact Lion-O never really had a chance with her at all. Cheetara’s rushed decision all those years ago prior to even meeting Lion-O shows she never learned Jaga’s lesson in patience and I wouldn’t be surprised if that came back to bite her in later episodes. And it seems Cheetara saw plenty of how Tygra treats Lion-O and has admonished him for it. Lion-O never had to play dirty to show Cheetara just how much of a filled to the brim douchebag Tygra is.

Lion-O is the star of the show. I know you Tygraholics can’t stand that fact but Lion-O is the central character of the show. The story mainly revolves aroud him. Get over the fact that more people like Lion-O as the Alpha male of the group than that Beta male Tygra.

The fact that fans keep bringing up Tygra’s flaws, mistakes, insecurities, etc and saying “Lion-o is not like him” only proves that they are tired of Tygra’s character recieving golden bias while Lion-O’s character gets sand kicked in his face time and time again.

And BOOM goes the dynamite. Another Tygrahlolics jaded views and bias blown out of the water. This is getting too easy.
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Remember though, the OS was structured differently than the reboot. Back in the 80’s cartoon like Thundercats were all about positive messages and not the Twilight drama we see now. Each episode of the OS pretty much ended with the “lesson” learned to teach the young children watching it.
And the OS didn’t need to hype nor put in a “love triangle” (especially one as poorly done as the reboot) to get viewers to tune in and stay tuned in either. The show was good enough on its own.

The OS was fair to all the characters and thus, it was fair to all the fans.
My biggest issue with the reboot is that it is not showing fairness to all characters and thus, not showing fairness to all fans.

And a big :thumbsup: to your insight into the characters during the Astral Plain scenes.

15

As I’m sooo tired of this topic, and of your offensive posts (calling Tygra fans Tygraholics is kind of offensive), I’m only going to reply to this.

Lion-o has been mean to tygra in several occasions:
[ul]
[li]Pilot: “When I grow up, I don’t weant to be like you” (or something like that).[/li][li]Into the Astral Plane: “That’s why she will pick me, just like the sword” (or something like that). Lion-o was so sure Cheetara will shoose him, and ghe gloated about it and rubbed it in Tygra’s face, while Tygra never did such thing and kept the whole thing on the side. And to add that the sword chose him as well as to beat the dead horse.[/li][li]Between Brothers: “You’ve always been jealous of me and what I have” (or something like that). Lion-o knows that’s Tygra’s thorn, but he’s too blind to see Tygra is not only jealous of a stupid sword or a crown, that even being neither the most important. Tygra is jealious of Lion-o’s belonging somewhere, that’s what he has always envied. Of course, if you refuse to look deeper than the producers show you, you get stuck in the “poor, not understood Lion-o” position.[/li][/ul]
And I repeat, Tygra has shown support and encouragement to his brotehr, while Lion-o hasn’t.

[ul]
[li]Tygra backed him in the pilot episode against the lizards.[/li][li]Tygra told him Claudus would have been proud of him in “Song of the Petalars”[/li][li]Tygra told him it didn’t matter what he (Tygra) thinks of him (Lion-o), but what he thinks of himself in “The Forest of Magi oar”.[/li][li]Tygra told Lion-o his accpetance of his relationship with Cheetara was important for him.[/li][li]Tygra told him he would enver betray him (“Between Brothers”) and he would follow him everywhere (“Trials part 2”)[/li][/ul]
The only sign of support Lion-o has shown him was at the end of “Native Son”.

So, if Tygra fans are Tygraholics, Lion-o fans are blind to the pulp.

16

I was gonna say.. “Oh my god, not another one”. But then i read it and was like.. “Dude.. He’s not stupid”.

Something is really wrong. (no offecne to the community) :thumbsup:

17

I hate to pull a Rodney King, but can’t we all just get along? Not aimed at anyone in particular, I just don’t want another outbreak of fighting about these characters.

I have been guilty of feeding the flames with my own take on things, and I’m sorry for that. Regardless of which characters we sympathize with, or don’t sympathize with, we’re all here because we like the show. Even if we criticize its take on certain things, that’s a form of support in its own way. I may feel more sympathy with Lion-O because I was the youngest brother in our household and got bullied by two resentful older brothers. But I can easily see how the situation would be reversed, and an older brother whose younger brother got a lot of preferential treatment and a lower standard of responsibility would sympathize with Tygra more.

So I want to appeal for peace. There are still four episodes left that we haven’t seen yet and I anticipate they will be very important ones. They might resolve a lot of the unresolved issues that get fought over on this board. Maybe we should all withhold judgment on the characters (and one another) until the first season is over. I’ll commit to that.

18

Exactly!

Grune: Ah tygra, I see so much of me in you, you would have made a great king, but such honors must be reserved for the blood line.
Claudus: Lion-O will also make a great king.

Of course, we all know that he was just being sarcastic.

19

That’s completely incorrect. Claudus specifically says in the very first episode, when Grune was praising Tygra, “Lion-O also will make a great king.”

lets see…
episode 1 “You better be very sure you want to do this, because I’ve got his back”
episode 4 “Father would’ve been proud of your bravery Lion-O”
episode 11 “You just have to believe in yourself.”
episode 13 “I would never betray you. Not then, not now.”
episode 16 “We’d follow you anywhere, your majesty.”

Of course you’re going to say that’s hardly anything. But How many times has Lion-O said anything nice or supportive about Tygra?

20

Seriously? Tygra-haters are still acting like the big, bad Tygra-fans are out to get them? And here I thought I wanted to rejoin this fandom…