How can Lion-O still be the nice guy?

Cartoons ThunderCats (2011)
121

At the risk of veering off topic, i have to say, there are certain things about this show that i wish were different, yet if they were, it probably wouldn’t have helped the show.

I just read the points made in http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/Thundercats2011 and i gotta say, i’m at a loss.

It started out okay, what with it pointing out how Lion-O was better suited to be king than Tygra. But then it started to go downhill for me when they started calling Lion-O lazy, irresponsible, inexperienced, brash and partly at fault for the pain caused as a result of the Love triangle thing.

I could more or less deal with the idea of the main character being inexperienced, but only if the one who is more experienced is the mentor, not the people who he/she is supposed to be in charge of. Otherwise, it will sound less like they’re teaching him/her something and more like they’re just criticizing them.

I’m still processing, but i don’t think that i mind Panthro being the most experienced given how old he is. But then then the Analysis had to go and say that Lion-O is a dreamer, an optimist, and works better when he has to be more flexible, while Tygra is level headed, realistic and looks at things in a strategic light. I would like to say that the latter’s qualities are bad somehow, but they’re not, being level headed helps you get things done, being realistic helps you get through life and looking at things strategically helps you better plan things out. And i want to believe that Lion-O’s listed qualities are good too, but that just leads me to think about the negatives of them; being a dreamer can make you oblivious to reality, being optimistic can make you seem naive, and frankly, it’s not really saying much for your intelligence if you have to be under fire to come up with a plan. If Lion-O’s better suited to be leader, then why give Tygra the admirable skills? Furthermore, why is Lion-O the only one without experience, how could the others have gotten theirs?

The above was also listed in WilyKat and WilyKit’s paragraph and they even stated that the twins were like the Royal brothers. That might sound clever, but it only aids my increasingly annoying fantasies of WilyKit and WilyKat acting like fan boys/girls towards Lion-O, or Tygra or anyone else.

And then there was the stuff said in Pumyra’s section. It said that Lion-O had to learn to stand by his own people, but wasn’t it already established that he already knew that two episodes prior? He was willing to sacrifice his own soul to save his people and in “The Pit”, he we was willing to go out of his way to rescue a Cat he didn’t even know. Seems to me that Lion-O already knew that he had to stand by his people. Also, the section said that it was after Lion-O met Pumyra that he became more responsible, but he seemed to have been going down that path ever since the 6th episode.

The fact of the matter is, whenever i hear someone say that Lion-O has to earn someone’s trust or respect, i feel that’s sort of implying that Lion-O didn’t deserve it before while someone else did. And as someone who feels like Lion-O has been give little to no breaks in his life, that’s not a good thing. Nor is hearing that Lion-O has to make up for something even though I personally did not see what he did wrong.

This is a problem for me because recently i just tried to watch “The Lion King” and whenever i think of that wonderful movie, i subsequently think of this show. And when that happens, think about how Simba had a much better experience when compared to Lion-O:

Simba had a close and loving bond with his Father - Lion-O had virtually none with his

Simba had the respect of his pride and subjects when he was just a prince - Lion-O never got any and it was all just for being who he is

Simba had a loving queen-to-be who stood by him no matter what, Nala never once made Simba’s life harder - Lion-O had someone who stood by him no matter what, but she turned out to like someone else and eventually stopped supporting him. And he was even chastised for being the one at fault for getting hurt (even though, he was just believing the message he felt was correct). Then he found someone who treated him like dirt at first, then started to warm up to him and ultimately betrayed him.

Simba had a pair of lovable friends who stood by him since he was cub - Lion-O clearly never had any friends

I guess when it comes down to it, this obsessive Thundercats issue of mine stems from me imagining about an episode where the Thundercats (including Lynx-O, Pumyra and Bengali) are treated to “Ghost of Christmas Past” look at their lives starting with the series’ pilot and ending with their victory over Mumm-Ra (my version of it at any rate). It was supposed to be something of “look back this and laugh” sort of thing, but whenever thought about certain episodes, i kept thinking about Lion-O saying or doing something that made him sound stupid or immature, and initially doing so with a smile. And if it wasn’t him, it was Tygra or Panthro and Pumyra. This kind of thinking has plagued me whenever i think about other shows too.

122

^I wrote that analysis, and I still stand by what I said.

Getting the love triangle out the way, I still believe that Lion-O, Tygra, and Cheetara each share the blame all around because it is unfair to lump it all on one character. Each person should have been clearer with how they felt so there wouldn’t be a misunderstanding. Cheetara should have known how her actions might be misinterpreted and probably should have told Lion-O Jaga asked her to look out for him. Tygra should have been more forward with Cheetara and let her know he still had a crush on her. Lion-O shouldn’t have just assumed Cheetara was into him without some kind of confirmation.

Lion-O’s qualities make him a better leader because he is more progressive thinking than Tygra. While Tygra does have good leadership qualities, he would still make a bad kind because he clings to outdated idea which Thundera destroyed in the first place. Tygra had the tools, but he lacked the vision to do what’s right. Lion-O has the vision, and over the course of the series he learns to be a better leader and in some ways becomes a little more like Tygra. A good king or leader needs qualities that both Lion-O and Tygra have, but where as Lion-O is able to take on Tygra’s qualities over time, Tygra has shown to be opposed to Lion-O’s qualities. A politician may have better leadership skills than the average citizen, but politician’s can still be corrupt or misguided and lead their people into disaster. Tygra refusing to accept that the old ways of Thundera were bad would make him no better a ruler than Claudus was, and while Claudus may have been good king to his people, Thundera was still destroyed because he acted like so many kings before him and did nothing about the oppression of the lizards.

The qualities I listed for both characters have their positives and negatives. I never meant to imply that Lion-O only works well when under pressure, only that he works better than Tygra under pressure. There’s a difference there. Consider when Lion-O infiltrates the pyramid after Tygra and the other Cats do. When the lizard soldiers almost catch them, Tygra freezes up and Kit has to bail they out. When Lion-O gets cornered by the three generals, who are much more dangerous than a group of soldiers, he quickly does think of a plan and easily takes them out. Tygra has much harder time working when something comes up which he hadn’t planned ahead for, and a leader who can’t work in a crisis is not a good thing.

Even if he is more level headed, Tygra is very narrow minded and has a hard time seeing solutions which may not be completely obvious. And this applies in a broader sense, because Tygra would never consider making allies with the other races to help them fight Mumm-Ra. He obviously still dislikes dogs and lizards, but Lion-O knows that having them on their side is essential if they want to win. Tygra’s tactics are very inside the box, and wouldn’t consider using diplomacy to fight. Tygra is more, for a lack of better term, “book smart” than Lion-O, but like I said, he’s not flexible. Lion-O is better at coming up with good ideas on the fly because he isn’t confined by some rigid sense of strategy or pride.

Tygra has experience from studying war tactics and combat training, and Cheetara has experience through training in combat and magic, and Panthro has years of experience from just fighting for so long. So the ones with less experience than Lion-O are the kittens. Possibly Pumyra too, but I’m not sure.

Most of the big advances in society and science have come from dreamers who imagined things that did not yet exist, and that’s the kind of person Lion-O is. Yes, he can be naive and unrealistic, but being cynical and unwilling to try new things can result in missing a lot of opportunities and making no good changes. The most significant people in history are these kinds of people, the kinds of people who look for new things and work to make the world better. Lion-O may lack the experience, but he is growing in experience and coupled with his optimism, dreams, and vision, he will become a greater king than Tygra would have or any since Leo, because Lion-O is actually going to try and make things better instead of just protecting the status quo. Tygra might be a smart guy, but rarely thinks of anything original and is only willing to try new things once he’s seen how powerful or effective they are. That is sound reasoning, but sometimes having a little faith in something not fully tested can really pay off in big ways, which Lion-O more or less proves by the end of the season when the people he’s helped come to help him.

As for Kit and Kat, when I say they are like the Royal Brothers, I didn’t mean that they will fanboy/girl over them, just that they hve their similarities and I can see each sibling gravitating more towards Lion-O or Tygra.

On Pumyra; when I say “his people,” what I mean is “the public.” The difference is that while Lion-O is friends with the rest of the ThunderCats, who to some extent share his role as leaders of their people, Pumyra represents the “public,” the masses of people Lion-O is trying to rule over whom he has little personal ties to. It’s one thing to stand by your friends, but it’s another to stand by a stranger, much less a stranger who hates you. “The Pit” is the episode where Lion-O has to learn to deal with bad public opinion, as opposed to just the criticism of his friends.

Lion-O went to rescue Pumyra in the first place because it was right, but he could have easily just abandoned her when she made it clear she hated him. “The Pit” through “Birth of the Blades” is meant to show Lion-O putting his leadership skills into practice on level other than just leading his squad of friends. They may not necessarily be episodes where Lion-O changes a great deal, but they are episode which show Lion-O better fulfilling his role as a king as opposed to just leading his friends. The other ThunderCats are warriors who can more or less take care of themselves, but for Lion-O his “people,” the public, and Pumyra, they are much more of a responsibility for him and he needs to take care of them. We don’t get a chance to see Lion-O do this before “The Pit,” and Pumyra’s introduction signifies Lion-O’s time to start acting like a responsible ruler. Learning to lead the ThunderCats was essentially just practice before stepping things up to full on King.

Just because Lion-O needs to earn someone’s respect or trust doesn’t mean he didn’t deserve it before. It just means that the person whose respect he needs to earn didn’t know Lion-O well enough. Lion-O always had the right qualities, he just needs the time and opportunity to show it. I think we can agree that after seeing Lion-O’s actions up to “Trials Part 2” that Lion-O was someone to be respected and trusted, but Pumyra didn’t know any of that before she met him in the Pit. Lion-O had to earn her trust, but that doesn’t mean he didn’t already deserve it.

The fact is that Third Earth is a pretty harsh place to live, and most people probably won’t trust or respect anyone right off the bat. Lion-O has to deal with the other races not trusting him because he’s a cat, and has to deal with his own people not always liking him because he’s young and new and mostly unprepared. It’s tough for him, but in the end Lion-O will be tougher for it and if he holds onto his optimism and vision he’ll become a much wiser and better person.

123

Let me try and do an analysis of my own, I’m hoping to do this in way that won’t provoke any anti-Lion-O thoughts, but I doubt that I will succeed

Lion-O- I’d like to think that Lion-O has always had the skills and maturity he needed to be a good leader, by virtue of his heart and sense of equality. And at one point, he had every intention of learning everything Claudus had to teach him. But after being shamed by Tygra so many times, he eventually decided that if Tygra was going to make him look inferior at every turn, there was little point in him even trying, so he decided to forsake his princely duties on the grounds that there was simply no point. Especially since Tygra seemed bound and determined to make the public want him to be king instead. He wasn’t being irresponsible, he simply lost the confidence he needed to carry on.

This was definitely for the best, because if Lion-O had become the prince that his people wanted at the time, he would have been the exact type of racist and bigoted Cat that the Lizards were against. But because he didn’t spend his days learning how to fight against the Lizards, he had very little animosity towards them and was able to actually listen to what they had to say, as opposed to Claudus and Tygra, who wouldn’t even hear them out. The only downside this had that really mattered was that, because Lion-O didn’t learn warfare with Claudus, he was somewhat unprepared for the sudden crisis that was suddenly dropped in his lap and was now on him to fix. If he ever acted impulsive or immature, chances are it was just the pressures of being charge taking their toll on him. And let’s face it; teenagers do not handle pressure very well. As far as him not coming to rescue the Cat Slaves sooner, I’d like to think that, because Mumm-Ra was actively hunting him and his group and the fact that he made it clear that he needed the Book of Omens and the Stones to rule Third Earth, Lion-O probably felt that until that crisis was averted, nothing else mattered, and apparently, so did the other Tcats. When he saw one of his people as a slave, his “I hate seeing anyone get treated badly” sense kicked in and when he found out that there were more in need, that same sense took over, full throttle. Especially considering that his people might inadvertently grant Mumm-Ra the means to rule the planet.

The only real lesson that Lion-O needs to learn now is how to use what he already knows to at last bring peace onto Third Earth and redeem his species.

Tygra- Granted, Tygra’s hard work did help him to become a skilled warrior and strategist, but when all is said and done, that just means he’s prepared for the ways of war. However, knowing how to fight Mumm-Ra’s army won’t be enough stop the monster himself. If “New Alliances” was any indication, taking out Mumm-Ra’s troops will only prompt him to recruit more enemies of the Cats to do his bidding, enemies with better fighting prowess. Under Tygra’s leadership, the Cats might have won a few battles at first, but it would only be a matter of time before Mumm-Ra defeated them with relative ease. I dare say that if Tygra was in charge, they probably never would’ve known how to use the Book of Omens, let alone about the Stones.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s hard to deny that Tygra does have some skills as a leader, but those skills would have better served him in the days when the Cats had the upper hand in terms of Military might. However, now that the Lizards have become more organized, now have better weapons and now actually have an official leader, leading with a “Might makes Right” type of method will no longer be enough. Tygra has to learn that the old ways are what allowed Mumm-Ra to do all of this, and if the Cats are to stop him, they can no longer rely on the strength of themselves alone, they need to make more allies. To do this, however, Tygra will have to admit that the Cats were wrong all these years, for treating the other animals like dirt.

Cheetara- Cheetara was trained by the Clerics for so long that she has an understanding of magic and combat. However, with Jaga gone, she must now take over her mentor’s role as advisor to the King, and, let’s face it, that didn’t go over so well. After much thought, I think that the Love triangle was brought on by two possible explanations on her part; one: she’s just naturally a flirty person, two: because the Clerics and the King have always had a professional relationship, and Cheetara figured that a full-blooded Royal like Lion-O wouldn’t have any such feelings for a lowly orphaned Cleric such as herself, and therefore wouldn’t take her encouragement any further than that. Tygra on the other hand, being an adoptee himself, was someone she could better relate to. However, it still would have behooved Tygra and Cheetara to let Lion-O know about their shared past, it would have save them all trouble in the long run.

Panthro- Being hardened soldier, Panthro has seen much action and many different locations away from Thundera. He knows the ways of Warfare; he knows how to adapt to his surroundings. But after fighting alongside others his own age like Grune, Claudus and Dobo, Panthro has been left inexperienced in how to deal with teenagers and children (especially since one of them is supposed to be his commander-in-chief). He’s so used to fighting alongside people who can take care of themselves; he’s been left unprepared in how to act as a surrogate guardian. Also, I don’t think that Panthro didn’t respect Lion-O, but rather he didn’t think that current circumstances were the best time for a teenager to be in charge, especially when one of the people they’re fighting is a seasoned General like Grune.

I think at this point, Panthro has to learn how to deal with children and how to act as their guardian in these troubled times.

124

I don’t think he could be a nice guy after seeing this! XD

http://browse.deviantart.com/art/Devouring-Pumyra-349062488

125

Girl~ I’ve seen that picture. Pumyra like a gold digger, fans and me just blew chunks, and Lion-o is like Charlton Heston, “YOU BLEW IT UP! D*** YOU ALL TO H***!!!”

126

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x41/Villra/pumyrafunny_zps6aefb886.png

127

OMG! I have found my soul sister of comedy!
I knew it! Pumyra, you nose picker! LOL

128

The more i think about how much strife Lion-O has been through, the more i can just imagine those emotions coming out the wrong way. For example, i can just imagine Lion-O finally snapping over how much the others second-guess and insult him, and him going as far as to reach of the Sword of Omens and attack each and every last one of of them.

Anger is a powerful emotion and if someone has been through as much Lion-O, it’s only natural that it would come out the wrong way and i sincerely doubt that Lion-O would be the one at fault there

129

That is a scary thought to imagine.

130

Maybe, but if i went through what Lion-O has gone through, i would at least consider such an action.

The series continuously moves against him, even basic animated story ideas don’t fully work here:

In certain shows/movies, when the hero/protagonist is viewed by someone else as something negative, the movie/show would usually have this negative perception of the hero/protagonist be proven completely wrong. Not here

In other shows/movies, when the main characters collaborate as a group, the leader is usually the one who helps make the others who they are. Not here. Seriously, what great leader takes leadership advice from the people he’s supposed to be in charge of? They don’t even bother to give Lion-O an ability or character trait that the others don’t have and could use themselves, no, he has to learn everything they know

In most movies/shows, when the main character is an important member of a group, they usually make it so that if said character wasn’t a part of said group, then this group would have failed at what they did a long time ago. Once again, not here, if Lion-O wasn’t the one in charge, the Thundercats probably would not have suffered for it. Did he really play that big a role in finding the Book of Omens? Were Tygra or Panthro really not capable of figuring out how to get the Book to work? Did they really need Lion-O to find the stones?

Yeah, i guess you could argue that “Trials of Lion-O part 2” showed just how much the other Cats need Lion-O as the one in charge. But no matter how much i try to think otherwise, i just keep coming back to the fact that, technically, he was the one who caused that crisis to happen in the first place.

131

The biggest problem I personally had with trials 2 was that they flipped the whole dynamic around for no discernable reason, suddenly Tygra could do no right and Lion-o could do no wrong.

132

I like knowing that “Trials of Lion-O” Part 2 and “Birth of the Blades” were written by Lion-O’s voice actor.

133

Simple answer is because that’s how Lion-O was written to be for this reboot.

Looking at how the series turned out, I am of the opinion the writers should have thought things out better beforehand but that is a discussion for a different topic.
Merged Post:

I think there was a reason for the flip. I think that many fans were clearly upset that Lion-O was made into the mental/emotional/spiritual/physical punching bag for not only the other Cats but every other resident of Third Earth as well thus the flip-flop might have been an attempt to win back some of the dwindling fanbase.

Unfortunetly, I don’t believe it worked out all that well.

134

This sinks in with what I have often pointed at as one of the biggest underlying problems with the reboot, namely the problems with continuity. As if the episodes were written independently without proper oversight of the whole, and what came before. But I’m not so sure they did the flip to appease the fans, because they went back to crapping on Lion-o afterwards. Seemed to me more like they rebooted the original trials, so they had to make Lion-o shine, just overshot it.

135

I very much agree with you. None of the episodes felt like there was any communication between the various writers. Much of what was contained in each individual episode felt like it was done for the sake of that episodes plot and not for series as a whole.

Like I said, the brief flip in Lion-O’s character might have been an attempt to win back some of the fanbase but it was an attempt that didn’t work.

I firmly believe the writers that were brought in to work on the reboot simply didn’t like Lion-O and wanted the “new” version of Tygra they came up with to be the main/central character. I feel they went above and beyond to belittle Lion-O and to try to make Tygra out to be the better character. Again, that obviously backfired on the Crew of Omens.