Episode 009 – The Garden of Delights

Cartoons ThunderCats (1985)
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In my mind, it’s always the “responsible” or “nice” characters in cartoons that fall victim to drugs to show how BAD they are to children. That way we can see simply and easily how much drugs can CHANGE you. You will hurt your friends, you will do things you’d never do before, etc etc.

I mean, it can’t be Lion-O, because he’s the one we’re supposed to learn the lessons with.

It can’t be Wily Kit or Kat because they’re kids, and even in a cartoon, young children taking drugs is wrong. Besides, they’re already sort of trouble-makers.

Pathro is already a wildcard, with a bit of a temper and his own quirks that set him off.

Cheetara is the mother figure and lone female. You can’t make mom someone you can’t go to.

Snarf is the Jiminy Cricket, and your conscience can’t tell you to take drugs.

So, aside from being the responsible/honorable character, it seemed kind of default for Tygra to ALWAYS get these problems.

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I think you got it right, it’s the most shocking contrast if you use a character like Tygra who is normally so mature and controlled. I think they definitely had that in mind with Panthro’s line: “Tygra’s so neat; this isn’t like him at all!”

And yeah if it was Panthro suddenly being all rude and confrontational (like with the Keystone) we’d just be like “Yeah so what?” Lol.

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Hi. As a huge Tygra fan, this thread caught my attention immediately lol.

I think this episode was great fo all it gives as lessons. But I must say I think people is being hard on Tygra. Yes, he has an addictive personality (Crystal Canyon and Turgamar the Tuska also show it), but he already felt very bad for what he did, and it wouldn’t have been nice from the others to grab it in his face even more. Also remember it might be due o his shyness, and as some people have pointed out, shy people is prone to addictions.

Also, it’s not like it’s the only ThunderCat’s flaw that has been shown, and they always are easily forgiven at the end (maybe because, as a kids show, it should value freindship overall). Cheetara’s lack of confidence on herself and on her friends have put the TCs in trouble more than once and she said nothing because she thought they would make fun of her. Same with Panthro’s pride and arrogance, or Lion-Os impulsiveness and curiosity. So, every TC had flaws, it’s only that Tygra’s were more obvious. I’d have liked to see more of his dark side too,a s well as the dark side of the others.

Also, it was very interestig that it was precisely Tygra the one who went for recognition after the earthquake, and Silky-Mumm Ra tempted him. Did he know about Tygra’s flaw from the beginning and planned it to meet him, or was it a mere coincidence? Would it have been any different had he found Panthro or Cheetara? Would they have rejected the fruit? Guess we’ll never know.

I know some people think of Tygra as lame, boring, even a coward or useless in battle, but a closer look to his character will bring a loyal friend (he helped Lion-O in The Mountain, Wolfrat, Turgamar the Tuska; and Cheetara in Divide and Conquer), a brave warrior willing to sacrifice himself (Pumm-Ra, Fireballs of Plun-Darr), a caring person (he took WilyKit in arms when she got free from the space capsule, and worried for Sanrf in Crustal Canyon, All that Glitters, and when he caught a cold in Eye of the Beholder), smart and wise, athletic and agile (I’d dare to say he’s the most athletic TC besides the kittens) and in some cases he was even funny.

Finally, regarding him using the illusion of the destruction of Thundera against Lion-O (somoene pointed that out), I think it was a nice and noble him to do, even knowing that could bring suffering to his friend, because:

a) he knew that Lion-O was ready and must confront it, and he should prove it. Remember it was Tygra who told the other TCs that if Lion-O failed in the atonements, then they all would have failed. The best way to show none of the failed is demonstrating that Lion-O was able to do it.

b) sometimes the best way to help a friend to get over a bad experience is helping him/her to process and confront it, and that’s what Tygra did. Remember Lion-O was a kid when Thiundera exploded, he kight not have processed it well, and in that way Tygra helped to that aim.

Also, I’m pretty sure he consulted it with the otehr TCs first lol… but if he didn’t and was all on him, you must reckon it was clever.

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I think it’s also important to remember that in any story, the characters are simply tools to get a message across. In real life, obviously addicts are not so easily cured at the end. But the purpose of the story isn’t to be “realistic,” it’s to teach an important lesson through characters we enjoy or identify with. Tygra’s fine at the end so he can explain what happened to him to the young audience and then go on to the next episode and next life lesson! ; )

I know some people think of Tygra as lame, boring, even a coward or useless in battle

Yeah I personally don’t understand that either; I think he’s a great character! His action scenes are always really impressive (and this is coming from someone who often gets bored by fight scenes!). To me he seems like a good soldier who eats, sleeps and dreams “The Thundercats” and all it represents, but in more human (or er, cat) matters, he’s a little awkward at times, lol. And I think that’s very endearing. :thumbsup:

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Yes.

As I see it, Tygra personifies the whole Code of Thundera alone. He’s fair, truth, honorable and loyal. He’s a great character, wise, brave and agile (you’ll see more than others climbing trees or keeping balance when walking over really thin structures like his whip, or when standing over the mutants’ guns), but also his dark side makes him more interesting, as well as Cheetara’s when shown. I think Panthro was in that sense the less impressive character.

Also, his mind power was awesome… too bad they didn’t show it more. I’m sure that, had they tried, the writers could have come out with a really interesting story for Tygra to use this power, and maybe even save the day.

Finally, and this is a very important fact most people overlook, Tygr shows the most integrity of all them. Think of this, when he messed things up, he apologized to his friends (Garden of Delights, Crystal Canyon, Mossland Monster), and when saved by others, he was always thankful and showed no shame on that (Fireballs of Plun-Darr, Turgamar the Tuska). I don’t remember Cheetara or Panthro apologizing for their mistakes, or thanking the others for saving them.

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Tygra is a great character. I only tease about a rug and matching drapes :slight_smile: Well admit it, he does have the best pelt!

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What’s funny about that is my first thought was Jason Stryker in X-Men and how sinister that kind of power was and how much the characters feared it. But when Tygra does it all the characters are just very proud and impressed (well except the mutants of course lol), showing it’s not the power alone that matters, but what you do with it.

Finally, and this is a very important fact most people overlook, Tygr shows the most integrity of all them. Think of this, when he messed things up, he apologized to his friends and when saved by others, he was always thankful and showed no shame on that

Yeah that’s one nice thing about children’s entertainment; the grown ups will actually apologize for their mistakes. Something that’s not exactly guaranteed in real life! Plus when Tygra does it, it’s not just an apology, he also corrects what went wrong, which is most important.

Another thing, “Eye of the Beholder” was mentioned earlier, I remember the scene where Lion-O and Panthro were fooling around with the duplicate Sword of Omens that Panthro built. Of course Tygra’s not in on the joke and asks if they’ve all gone crazy, lol. And then Panthro proudly explains how he built the duplicate himself, clearly expecting some praise for his achievement, but all Tygra can say is “Hmm. Why?” Lol. I think that sums up his character pretty well; he’s very intelligent, but doesn’t always pick up on the social cues. ; )

Tygra is a great character. I only tease about a rug and matching drapes :slight_smile: Well admit it, he does have the best pelt!

It’s OK, it’s hard to resist those kinds of jokes, lol. And yes he does, hehe. :thumbsup:

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i never really liked this ep i usually tend to shower or nap during it since to me it doesnt make a good deal of sense with the warriar maiden willa under mummras control so quickly, it was basically as if the thundercats trapped him instead
as for tygra he does have some self esteem issues in the series but i believe the eps that help define him r in the second season

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He does! Even Safari Joe saw it and told Cheetara he will turn him into a rug :smiley:
Merged Post:

At least the 5 or so eps he appeared in season 2.

It always bothered me how bad thet treated Tygra after season 1. Of all the old grown-up TCs, he was the least seen in seasons 2 and 3. Ok, there had to be some eps dedicated to the new TCs, but when the whole gang was in, he wasn’t, had little dialogue if any, or was merely shown: Cat Fight, Psych Out, Ravage Island, Sound Stones, Telepathy Beam Exile Isle, The Thunderscope, The Jade Dragon and some others I don’t remember right now, all these eps show all the TCs, or at least the old ones, and Tygra was the least shown in them, if he got to get an appearence. In The Last Day (last ep of season 3), he had only 2 lines and was the first one to be sent to the exile, and then never spoke again. It was as if the writers gave more importance to Panthro, Cheetara and even the Thunderkittens instead of Tygra, when they could have tried to balance their appearences (instead of writing Tygra out of so many eps, they could have written out Panthro or Cheetara of some). They did write out Cheetara in some eps of season 1 (The Mountain and Superpowers Potion); I’m sure she was out because writers considered Tygra was out of some others when Panthro and Cheetara were in (Berseekrs, Tight Squeeze, the trial of the thunderkittens), so they balanced it; same could have been done in seasons 2 to 4.

And season 4 was the ultimate insult to his character… couldn’t they have taken him and Pumyra as well? I mean, ok, leave them in Third Earth in the beginning to set things, but after a few weeks it was obvious there was nothing to really worry about going on on Third Earth and, with Mumm-Ra in New Thundera, they for sure would have been more helpful there.

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This episode always seems to be the most controversial among fans for a number of reasons. In particular, I remember it fueling to a certain extent what I called “The Great Tygra Controversy” (which could be a different topic for another time.) But just focusing on this aspect, the question was: does Tygra have an addictive personality or doesn’t he? Considering how inconsistent the show was, I would say he was only an addictive personality when the writers wanted him to be. It didn’t help matters that compared to the others, he was a essentially a blank slate. So they felt they could do whatever they wanted with him when it came to doing something that, for the other Thundercats, would seem out of character. I wonder though if the producers of the new show might remember this episode? It’ll be interesting whether or not they might address it.

I wasn’t crazy about this episode either. And not just for that. I remember Peter Newman’s voice acting in this while Tygra was under the influence to be laughable, which went against the tone of what they were going for. Also remember this was the 80’s: the height of the whole “Just say no” campaign. So just about every show that was on at the time just had to have an anti-drug message. Some did it well, but others didn’t, and in many cases it just felt to me to be too preachy. In this case I felt it was handled really clumsily and just shoehorned in there.

I guess maybe I feel the way I do because I know addiction is a serious problem as I’ve seen it firsthand in people I’ve known. One of my cousins is a heroin addict. I have two other friends who were former heroin addicts and I’ve heard from them how it ruined their lives and how difficult it was to overcome. One girl at my school claimed she was an heroin addict but was clean, but it turned out she had only substituted heroin for painkillers and had tried to use me and my fiancee to further her addiction until we got wise to her and cut her off. Finally another friend I cared about very much was arrested and thrown in jail after being caught with more than 6 oz. of heroin. That one really upset my fiancee and I because she was going to Cornell and had only one semester left before she graduated. She had also been a pairs skater and edited the Cornell Daily Sun. So she was very smart and had real talent. She had such a bright future and threw it all away. It even made national news. So it was a hell of a way to find out. :frowning:

So whenever I see something like “Garden of Delights,” it bothers me because they just seemed to handle the subject of addiction in such a facile manner, and the reality of it is far more complex. Even though Thundercats was a kids show, I think that this was one of those examples where that in fact hurt it because it prevented them from dealing with it in any meaningful way. That and even back then kids were much smarter than they were being given credit for, and they know when they’re being duped, so it was disingenuous on that level as well. Just my two cents on it.

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You have my sympathies for all the situations you’ve encountered of course; drug addiction is a nightmare that society does not take seriously enough. Personally though I think the episode dealt with the issue very well, and addressed aspects other “Just Say No” specials would never have touched. I think a lot of fans (like on YouTube for instance, heh) tend to focus on the infamous “flying” scene, make a lot of jokes, and miss what the rest of the episode was trying to get at. For awhile you really think Tygra’s going to sell out Lion-O, just for a momentarily pleasure, and it is genuinely disturbing.

And the use of humor doesn’t necessarily mean they weren’t taking it seriously. Look at a movie like Life is Beautiful. It deals with very dark issues with humor, yet the somber message still comes across. And personally, I think sometimes you do need to laugh at a disturbing topic, if only to to keep from crying. (Corny I know, but this is a Thundercats thread!)

To me the problem with this episode wasn’t the message they were sending, but simply that the writing could have been tighter. It just goes to show how important that is. They were relying too much on the animation to tell the story when the dialogue would have been better. (Ironic, considering normally the Thundercats talk a little TOO much! Lol)

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  1. I agree with you in that writers seem to do whatever they wanted with Tygra because he was the least-defined character (in comparisson with Cheetara and Panthro) so it would look improbable in others, so Tygra was what we call here a tailor’s box. They could have defined his character better though hadn’t they have him in the background most of the time. What is interesting to me is that Tygra seemed a lot more important in the first episodes, and many eps were about him or showed a lot of him, and then for some strange reason Panthro took that spot (maybe kids liked him more).

  2. I don’t think they treated this episode in a bad way. Yes, many of the shows back in the time were with the “Just Say No” campaign, but maybe this ep wasn’t about saying no, but supported the campaign precisely by showing the effects of drugs. You know, shows with the anti-drug messages talked about tongue/lung cancer, etc, but this episide showed other possible consequences: self-alientation, the addict being able to betray his friends and pronciples, neglection of your own appearence and hygiene, reckless behavour, etc.

  3. Sorry about your bad experiences with drugs. It really suck (I have lived it as well with a cousin).

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People forget it all comes down to ratings. :wink:

  1. I don’t think they treated this episode in a bad way. Yes, many of the shows back in the time were with the “Just Say No” campaign, but maybe this ep wasn’t about saying no, but supported the campaign precisely by showing the effects of drugs. You know, shows with the anti-drug messages talked about tongue/lung cancer, etc, but this episide showed other possible consequences: self-alientation, the addict being able to betray his friends and pronciples, neglection of your own appearence and hygiene, reckless behavour, etc.

Exactly, instead most drug PSAs go with the “drugs can kill” angle, failing to realize that addicts already know that; they just do it anyway. This episode is more about what a jerk you become to your friends while on drugs. Again, yes the scene where Panthro and Tygra are talking and Tygra’s all spaced out is funny, but when you think about it it’s also upsetting because even though he’s talking to his friend, clearly all he’s thinking about is the fruit (and not sharing it, though that’s probably a good thing, lol). It’s painful because they are there talking to each other, but in reality they couldn’t be further away from each other.

And the Keystone episodes deals with these issues even more bluntly; perhaps they did decide an addiction episode occasionally needs a more sinister tone. There they actually show him getting all paranoid and literally attacking his friends and then trying to deflect from the behavior a moment later. I mean even TV sitcoms (supposedly written for adults) are afraid to touch on that aspect of addiction, partially because they’re afraid audiences won’t “like” that character anymore (again, ratings!). So personally I’m glad Thundercats was willing to take that risk with one of its characters if it meant getting the word out to kids about drugs.

You know other cartoons would have just used a “guest star” character for an episode like that (He-Man did if I recall). Someone we didn’t care much about either way. For Thundercats to use one of their main characters that we did care about was in fact pretty gutsy.

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I preferred the Keystone episode because it starts out as something useful that draws Tygra in the longer he uses it.

:eek:

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Tygra is also considered the wisest of the living ThunderCats. I think this was a wise character flaw to put in him to show that you can be wise and still not be perfect. At the same time, though, Tygra overcame this on his own. Towards the end he was pretending to still be under the influence and asking Silky for more fruit, yet when Mumm-Ra gave it to him, he merely pretended to be eating it. So I think that showed some of his great mental ability at work.

One of my favorite moments in the episode is when Tygra finally grabbed the sword, that as the sword roared, it made Tygra’s eyes glow and caused him to shake from its power.

That was cute.

It makes no sense to me that the eye would have responded like it did to Willa. Especially considering young Lion-O in Exodus couldn’t lift the sword on his own.

I wondered why Lion-O didn’t summon the sword to his hand.

Panthro’s use of his insignia was just weird.

I liked Lion-O’s different way of summoning the eye at the end than one of the two standard ways he always calls.

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One of my favorite scenes was this one.:

Panthro: Be careful.
Tygra: As a cat.

Careful as a cat eh?

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Curiosity and all that. :wink:

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I always liked that quote too. Kinda double-sensed irony on it.

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Does anyone remember how Tygra got his weapon back?

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Always like that quote. :thumbsup: