Thoughts so far....

Cartoons ThunderCats (1985)
1

Howdy

Now being 3 epsiodes away from finishing Season 1 (I started on Tuesday) I have to say there are some great epsiodes in there. Two of my stand out faves being Garden of Delights…really trippy epsiode and a good focus on Tygra who seems a little unused and the Thundercat who will most likley be put out of commision first from a mutan attack (although I think this is because aside from Lion-O he is the deadliest one :wink: ).

Another fave is The Mountain, Jackalman is really nefarious and evil in this episode epsecially when fighting Lion-O and this came as quite a shock as we are all I suppode used to Jackalman being the silliest of the four mutants.

The animation it has to be said is marvalous and easily the best animation for an 80’s cartoon that I have seen so far. The lighting and explosions are wonderfully done with only a few animation mishaps now and again.

Storywise…okay I don’t want to sound like one of those people who say “Thundercats is a rip-of off He-Man” but…there are clearly influences…shall we say :smiley: First the morals…all done by He-Man before it and in T-Cats they do seem a little more tacked on, I am trying not to let bias take over I am just being honest. The story’s in T-Cats may seem weaker because a few of them were done in He-Man and so I have already basically seem them but there are different epsiodes like the two I mentioned which are faves. The animation in T-Cats is far superior in everyway…as I have said but it ain’t the most original of shows in some of the content but that is to be expected as being original is hardly possible, I am sure if I had seem some cartoons that were before He-Man I would be able to make comparisons.

But I really like Thundercats, I think it is a fantastic show if a little annoying in the voice acting dapartment.

One final note before I watch the last 3 eps of Season 1 and the first 10 of Season 2, I noticed that in T-Cats Season One Volume One, Mumm-Ra made very few appearences which was good if a little weird…now in direct contrast to He-Man, T-Cats Season 1 Volume Two is full on Mumm-Ra, its hard to think of an ep without him in it…pointless to note out but there you go.

Sorry this is the final note now…Unholly Alliance is that the epsiode with the missing music and title cards (grrr there are a few eps with missing titles cards)? If so…no missing music on mine…so I got a corrected set then?

Chris M

2

[QUOTE=shigsy2003]
Storywise…okay I don’t want to sound like one of those people who say “Thundercats is a rip-of off He-Man” but…there are clearly influences…shall we say :smiley: First the morals…all done by He-Man before it and in T-Cats they do seem a little more tacked on, I am trying not to let bias take over I am just being honest. The story’s in T-Cats may seem weaker because a few of them were done in He-Man and so I have already basically seem them but there are different epsiodes like the two I mentioned which are faves.
[/QUOTE]

Let me just point out that Thundercats went into production in 1983 (the same year as He-man did) Yes Thundercats was produced 2 years before it hit TV. So it’s too difficult to know which cartoon was made first so you can’t really say Thundercats copied He-man episodes. For all we know, He-man might have copied Thundercats.

But at the end of the day, most 80’s cartoons had similar themes and smiliar episode arcs. I mean how many cartoon series had an episode entitled Eye of the Beholder for example? I guess the major difference is the characters and their development. For me Thundercats wins hands down in that department.

3

Also if you look in the episode guide of this site, you can see that each of the episodes (season 1 at least) were are geared towards having morals and defintely were not tacked on as an added kick. Tcats just doesn’t straight say what the moral of the story is…they actually let the viewer figure it out, which I think is better. :wink:

And as Neil said, a lot of the 80s cartoons tend to use the same formula. GI Joe also had morals/lessons as well. It was at the time, something studios needed to do to get politics off their back when it came to violence in television.

EDIT: Also, I find that Mumm-Ra and Skeletor are FAR from similar. In other words, Mumm-Ra >>> Skeletor any day.

4

[QUOTE=TCL-Manny]
Also if you look in the episode guide of this site, you can see that each of the episodes (season 1 at least) were are geared towards having morals and defintely were not tacked on as an added kick. Tcats just doesn’t straight say what the moral of the story is…they actually let the viewer figure it out, which I think is better. :wink:
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I agree. Its not quite as ‘In your face’ as He-Man was, and its usually worked into the end of the story so it doesnt feel tacked on.

G.I Joe had the public service announcements too, which didnt really work as well…and ended up being unintentionally hilarious lots of the time.

5

[QUOTE=blackiecats]
Let me just point out that Thundercats went into production in 1983 (the same year as He-man did) Yes Thundercats was produced 2 years before it hit TV. So it’s too difficult to know which cartoon was made first so you can’t really say Thundercats copied He-man episodes. For all we know, He-man might have copied Thundercats.
[/QUOTE]

Howdy

Okay understandable although I think you may have contradicted yourself…Thundecats was in production in 1983 the same year He-Man hit the air fair enough…but if Thundercats didn’t air for 2 years AFTER He-Man wouldn’t have been impossible for He-Man to copy of Thundercats episodes that wouldn’t air for 2 years?

[QUOTE=blackiecats]
But at the end of the day, most 80’s cartoons had similar themes and smiliar episode arcs. I mean how many cartoon series had an episode entitled Eye of the Beholder for example? I guess the major difference is the characters and their development. For me Thundercats wins hands down in that department.
[/QUOTE]

Very true after having seen all of Transformers, Dungeons and Dragons, half of He-Man and nearly all of Thundercats and all of Visionaries they are very similar in the story sector…as to your point of Eye of the Beholder…I know of D&D, He-Man and T-Cats that use that episode title. I just personally think He-Man tells the storys better…I am not sure, it might be because I saw first I don’t know, I think T-Cats is awesome (especially the movie) I just feel He-Man is stronger in the story department.

One thing though Thundercats beats all the cartoons I have seen from the 80’s in one area (bar animation): CONTINUITY. Which to me is one of the most important things to really get engrossed in something and it is sadley and sorely missing from He-Man :frowning:

I can see everyone’s points and it has made me see somethings although where we may disagree is you guys seem to think T-Cats is better in the story telling department…why? I am not thinking you guys are strange for thinking this so take it that way I am just wondering if you could provide an explation as to why as I cannot at the moment.

Thanks

Chris M

6

thundercats was defenitly a great series and im glad i made u watch it. anyway the only series that i think did a better job with continuity was gijoe. that series was also done very well. thundercats was very good at storytelling same w heman thundercats and for the most part w exception of g1 transformers.
oh and mummra and skeletor are similar but i think mummra may have done more damage especially when u watch season 2

7

[QUOTE=shigsy2003]
Howdy

Okay understandable although I think you may have contradicted yourself…Thundecats was in production in 1983 the same year He-Man hit the air fair enough…but if Thundercats didn’t air for 2 years AFTER He-Man wouldn’t have been impossible for He-Man to copy of Thundercats episodes that wouldn’t air for 2 years?
[/QUOTE]

That actually wasn’t an oversight on my part :slight_smile:

If a studio is fishing for ideas, sometimes they have been known to pinch someone elses pitch :x

For example when The Dreamstone was being thrown around various kids TV companies a particular company turned it down. The Dreamstone finally did get picked up (obviously) but that same TV company (I won’t mention names) that turned it down came out with their own cartoon around the same time, that had very similiar ‘Dream’ themes to that of The Dreamstone. At the end of the day, I feel The Dreamstone won out, primarily because 52 episodes were produced of The Dreamstone and the other show had no where near as many episodes made.

So these things can happen. A series doesn’t have to air on TV for producers and company execs to get wind of it. Also remember back then that not so many copyright law suits would be flying around as they would today if the situation arose again.

8

[QUOTE=blackiecats]

For example when The Dreamstone was being thrown around various kids TV companies a particular company turned it down. The Dreamstone finally did get picked up (obviously) but that same TV company (I won’t mention names) that turned it down came out with their own cartoon around the same time, that had very similiar ‘Dream’ themes to that of The Dreamstone. At the end of the day, I feel The Dreamstone won out, primarily because 52 episodes were produced of The Dreamstone and the other show had no where near as many episodes made. Actually I believe at one point The Dreamstone was airing on CITV, while the ‘other’ cartoon was on at the same time on CBBC! :roll:
[/QUOTE]

What was the ‘other cartoon’? Neil, I’m curious to know now, as I’ll probably remember it! Then again, if it was on at the same time, I doubt anything could have torn me away from Dreamstone:D

9

Finally, a real discussion I can debate!!!

Feel free to elaborate on this statement Manny. :slight_smile: With the exception of Skeletor and Mumm-Ra being the main villains of their respected shows, I don’t see very much similarities at all.

I think the writers were able to flesh Mumm-Ra out a whole lot more than Skeletor. Case in point: Mumm-Ra had an actual weakness – his own reflection. It gave him a vulnerability that a lot of shows don’t do for their baddies. That’s one of the top reasons why I fell more in love with the ThunderCats than Masters of the Universe – I mean, I know He-Man’s weakness was trying to protect humans – but that is also Superman’s weakness as well.

My argument is that Mumm-Ra is a more fleshed out, vile character versus Skeletor, whom I do not dislike, but I see him more as a goofball than as a major threat. Skeletor needs his henchmen to go against He-Man…while Mumm-Ra has a lot of different abilities that he is capable of using. I found Hordak more of a threat to Etheria since he has conquered the planet.

They may have the same roles, but they are very different characters.

10

Being a writer I know how the Television industry works.
Heck, I’m writing a pitch for a new TV series as I type this.

A show typically back in the 80’s went into pre-production up
a year, or as few as eight months prior to getting things moving
along. Studio executives hire an executive producer, whom hires
a few mor producers, whom hire a story editor, who in turn bring in
staff writers. As the writers work on the first thirteen stories, the
producers get everyone else on board. First up is the art department,
who set up model sheets for approvals. Then the audio is done,
music, then the voice cast records lines while the animation is being
produced. Each step needs to be approved by the producers, and executives prior to getting sent to the next stage.

It can take up to anywher from 6 to 8 months to get an episode done.

As far as pitching a series, each studio has their own way. Some
execs have their own personal show ideas, and hire on to have them
made, some take in ideas from writers, others see things, and get ideas,
and pitch it to staff writers for a particular studio.

As for ThunderCats, the idea came from Ted Wolf, but he had no further
involvment with the series past it’s original conception. He pitched it to
the studio executives, who hired Leonard Starr as a Staff Writer/ Story Editor. He then wrote a tereatment, and bible for the series, and the
writers used that bible as a spring board.

The way episode stories are done depends on each studio, and type
of show. As an exemple Disney had meetings for many of their shows,
and all the staff writers had their say in what each episode is about,
then the story editor gave each writer a set of episodes to write on
their own. Now don’t hold me on this, but I believe ThunderCats used
the other system, where the staff writers pitched their outlines to
Leonard, and went from their.

The reason for outstanding animation for ThunderCats, was because
the animation was one of the many first to have the animation done
overseas, in this case by Pacific Animation Corporation. At the time
they were working revolutionizing the animation industry with new
techniques, and inventions. Production IG made Akira soon after,
and look at how much animation advanced since then.

The downside was the turnover on how long it took to approve, and
get animation cels back to the States. Any mistakes made with the
animation could be simply attributed to miscommunication, and
translation problems. As for the voice acting, I enjoyed ThunderCats’
voice cast, and Bob McFadden, Earl Hammond, Larry Kenney, Lynne
Lipton, Earle Hyman, Peter Newman, Doug Preis, Gerrianne Raphael
all did an amazing job. Earl Hammond alone deserved an award for
the best portrayal of a villain. Mumm-Ra actually gives me chills
when I hear that crackling laugh.

On the subject of ThunderCats, and Masters of the Universe having
simularities, there is an answer for that. In writing there is nothing
original, just new takes on something else, but one thing will always
remain.

Good vs. Evil , and with writers, it’s natural to create an evil
villain, and a chivalric Hero. archtypes are what they are for a reason.
With that being said, Manny said it best. Mumm-Ra was better
written. The folks at Mattel wanted a comedic element to Skeletor
to target their demographic range, same with Orko, and yes, Snarf(er).

Okay, I am so shutting up now.

11

Finally after several years of not watching MOTU I decided to w atch a couple of episodes and truthfully dont get me wrong I like MOTU but here’s my opinion on a couple of things

  1. Adam (He-Man) sounds more like She-Ra IMO
  2. Skeletor is a wuss, his voice alone just begs for him to get whupped

I’m not too sure if i can sit thru an pisode of MOTU without laughing at the character voices. I guess those things one dosnt notice when you’re a kid

12

[QUOTE=TCL-Manny]
Finally, a real discussion I can debate!!!

Feel free to elaborate on this statement Manny. :slight_smile: With the exception of Skeletor and Mumm-Ra being the main villains of their respected shows, I don’t see very much similarities at all.

I think the writers were able to flesh Mumm-Ra out a whole lot more than Skeletor. Case in point: Mumm-Ra had an actual weakness – his own reflection. It gave him a vulnerability that a lot of shows don’t do for their baddies. That’s one of the top reasons why I fell more in love with the ThunderCats than Masters of the Universe – I mean, I know He-Man’s weakness was trying to protect humans – but that is also Superman’s weakness as well.

My argument is that Mumm-Ra is a more fleshed out, vile character versus Skeletor, whom I do not dislike, but I see him more as a goofball than as a major threat. Skeletor needs his henchmen to go against He-Man…while Mumm-Ra has a lot of different abilities that he is capable of using. I found Hordak more of a threat to Etheria since he has conquered the planet.

They may have the same roles, but they are very different characters.
[/QUOTE]

Howdy

Err guys I aren’t aware that I have been comparing Skeletor and Mumm-Ra. If you want me to though I will. Mumm-Ra is a far more interesting character than Skeletor is. Mumm-Ra has layers to him where as you pointed out Skeletor is a little well goofy and thats about it. Mumm-Ra has clear weaknesses as you pointed but there is something you missed. Mumm-Ra has emotions. Saying “yes I love you to Ma-Mutt” is one of the strangest lines to come from a cartoon villian but it adds depth to Mumm-Ra’s character that Skeletor’s is sorley lacking. I mean if you look at most if not all cartoon villians they are “kill, destroy” mindless automatons that pose no real threat have no real weaknesses and have no emotions, they are two dimensional characters that are purley there to be easy fodder for the hero of any given show. Most children it has to be said aren’t going to be looking for deep characterization so this isn’t really a problem but it is nice to come across a villian such as Mumm-Ra who isn’t vain…actually MAKES and KEEPS deals…none of this: “I want you to do something for me”…“what will I get in return”…“I might let you live” (Megatron was most famous for this)…Mumm-Ra as proven in Thundercats HO! when making the deal with Hammerhand and the Berserkers asks for their assistance…they ask what will they get…he says his goodwill…they say they want gold and surprisingly gold is what they get. He has some semblence of intelligence, he acts the same with Driller…giving him diAmonds and not threats in order for him to carry out his task (thinking about it he does sort of threaten but he still gives him diAmonds as well).

So yeah, Mumm-Ra is far better, he knows the distinction of knowing when to use fear and when to give his accomplasis what they want.

Neil and voiceguy: thanks for the information, I should have known it be possible but thanks to your lengthy explanations I can see more clearly now :smiley:

Chris M

13

[QUOTE=MannysCollectibles]
Finally after several years of not watching MOTU I decided to w atch a couple of episodes and truthfully dont get me wrong I like MOTU but here’s my opinion on a couple of things

  1. Adam (He-Man) sounds more like She-Ra IMO
  2. Skeletor is a wuss, his voice alone just begs for him to get whupped

I’m not too sure if i can sit thru an pisode of MOTU without laughing at the character voices. I guess those things one dosnt notice when you’re a kid
[/QUOTE]

Um… I agree. Let’s not blame Alan though he’s an amazing voice actor,
and I actually enjoy him as Man-at-Arms, as well as Falkor the luck dragon
in The Never Ending Story, as well as Vanity Smurf in the Smurfs… etc..

14

[QUOTE=voice_guy]
Um… I agree. Let’s not blame Alan though he’s an amazing voice actor,
and I actually enjoy him as Man-at-Arms, as well as Falkor the luck dragon
in The Never Ending Story, as well as Vanity Smurf in the Smurfs… etc..
[/QUOTE]

Howdy

Yes Alan is amazing, if I remember rightly he also plays Cringer’s (and many others voices) and so it shows his diversity.

I can’t wait to here what he has to say on the commentaries for the 3 epsiodes in Season 2 Volume 1.

Chris M

15

well lets see
he gained the sword of plundorr and with it he almost destoryed liono in the ep where they find the telescope, name escapes me right now/ also i forgot in season 1 he almost destroyed the thundercats in excalibur
back to season 2 he reformed thundera then almost destoryed it in return to thundera. thats all i can think of at the moment

16

optimusprime (Manny) said that Skeletor and Mumm-Ra are similar, so I asked him his reasons for saying so.

That kind of proves my point, not yours. It reflects how much of a vile character Mumm-Ra really is compared to the goofball that Skeletor is. You said they are similar as in they have similar characteristics whereas I disagreed and said they are totally different aside from being the main villain in each of their respected series. So yeah, if you agree, then that’s cool, but you did say the two characters were similar in which your above statement doesn’t really prove. :smiley:

17

similar yes in terms of being loved by most fans cause of how they r to the enemy or there own ally, but i was point out mummras success