Okay, so I just watched Lion’s Anointment episodes…I was going to watch one each day, but I got too eager and watched 'em all at once like a mini-series, lol.
So, yeah, about this whole point that the other ThunderCats MAY NOT HELP Lion-O during the trials, and Lion-O cannot accept aid of any kind from ANYONE:
Didn’t he violate the 2nd part of this rule in the Maze of Infinity? When he goes to help Kit & Kat and they’re all three stuck hanging onto the rocks of that cliff above the pit, those cave-dwellers come along and pull Lion-O up, along with the kids. But he just accepted help, so should he be disqualified right there? You may say it was an “extenuating circumstance” because all three participants were stuck out of commission, unable to get back to the task at hand. But, still, Lion-O chose to go back, he chose to help the kids, he got stuck because of it with no way out on his own, and he then accepted help (to save his life, yes, but we’re still talking about the rules here, lol).
Then, on day 4, didn’t Tygra, the most staunch of tradition and rules, break the first part of the “no help” rule, and actually cheat? Who saw that one coming? lol Lion-O is making his way back in the snow up to his waist to go back and get his belt, the mutants zone in on him, and Tygra distracts them with illusions, saving Lion-O. Tygra even says to himself he shouldn’t help Lion-O, “but the mutants”–he uses them as a rationalization to help him. Again, if he didn’t, that could have very well been the end of Lion-O, so you may say it was for the sake of the trial. And apparently this is the first time mutants have been a threat of interruption since they’re now on the same planet as the ThunderCats, but still…
And as if that weren’t enough, if Tygra didn’t disgrace the Code of Thundera by cheating and helping Lion-O, Lion-O himself again accepts aid! From Snow Meow, when he’s, again, hanging onto a cliff, and Snow Meow reaches over with Lion-O’s belt in his mouth and our hero grabs the belt and climbs out to safety. Yes, again, that could have been the end of Lion-O, but he did accept aid—again.
Forgive me, I love my ThunderCats, and I’m not saying Lion-O should be shamed into coming to a ceremony and forced to give back his crown (and robe) a la Vanessa Williams, but I’m playing the devil’s advocate, lol. Someone call Jaga.
By the way, no offense Lion-O, but I always pulled for Cheetara, the Kittens, and Tygra in the contests against them…no hard feelings, but I just couldn’t help but root for my faves, lol (Tygra, Cheetara, and Kat in that order). And it would have been nice to have seem more cunning tricks with “the Wileys” in the Maze of Infinity.
You know, I’ve always held that same feeling, that Lion-o recieved too much help in the trials while he shouldn’t and was supposed not to.
I think it was the very first time the Mutants interferred in the trials, because when he was competing against Cheetara and Panthro helped him in the Thundertank, he told Lion-o that he (Panthro) knew he shouldn’t help, but also said that the Mutants were not supposed to intefer (as if they haven’t interferred in thae past, maybe because in Thundera the trails were better secured). But yes, Lion-o got help in that one too.
Then comes the one with the kittens. I’m not sure if the rules were that Lion-o couldn’t get help from the other TCs only, or from any other living being; after all, making allies is part of leadership and it also shows external resources. But, if he wasn’t supposed to get any help at all, then yes, he cheated and should have been desqualified, no matter if it was to save his life because, well, the Lord should be able to save his -and others- life; I think part of the trials was to prove himself, and part of proving himself is being able to save his life.
Now, the one against Tygra is the most complicated. Not only Tygra helped him with the Mutants (which could have been Panthro in the Thundertank again: if Pantrho helped Lion-o in the trial against Cheetara, then he could have helped him in Hook Mountain as well… but between us, I always felt Panthro was the only TC rooting compeltely for Lion-o, without any objectivity), but also by doing it, Tygra himself got weaker, as using his mnd powers drained him, giving Lion-o some advantage. So the honorable thing for Lion-o to do is approaching Tygra and telling him something like “you helped me, and got weaker by ding so, so this trail should be suspeneded until you feel good and in your whole potential”. Of course, that would have given Lion-o some time to prepare himself now that he knew what Tygra was able to do.
BUT, more important, before the trial started, Tygra warned Lion-o that by the end of the day he would face his greatest fear. Tygra said he was allowed to tell Lion-o that (I personally never understood why was that), but by doing so he gave Lion-o a huge clue, which was determinant in Lion-o finally overcoming Tygra’s illusion. So that was the biggest help he got, IMO, and that makes the trial invalid, IMO.
So, as I see it, not only trials 3 and 4, but also trial 2 were invalid.
Given how skeptical Jackalman and Slithe were of Monkian initially, I think it’s fair to say that Lion-O’s trials were the first set of trials that Mutants had any opportunity to interfere with. Rather than taking it literally, I see the forbidden interference rule more as a check against unfair advantage that might alter the result of the trial.
In that light, Panthro and Tygra driving the Mutants away from Cheetara is valid—removing their interference is not offering her an unfair advantage because, had they been harassing Lion-O (which they weren’t), Panthro and Tygra would presumably have gone to his aid as well. Cheetara still meets up with Lion-O with five miles to go, arguably waiting for him there, and then they race. The outcome of the trial is altered more by her just standing there than by the ThunderTank taking the Mutants out of the game. And Lion-O should be commended for rejecting help during that Trial; Willa and Nayda were doing their best to interlope, and he wouldn’t let them, to the point of being rude. I think Trial 2 is fine.
Trial 3 is equally devoid of unfair advantage. The Mutants were interfering, but not in a way that gave Lion-O any help. On the contrary, Monkian was causing trouble for him all the way along, and he still came out on top—an unfair disadvantage that he overcame anyway. The Kittens, meanwhile, were unimpeded. In the end, the help that that they accepted from the Underearth People was offered to all three of them. The winner of the trial was not determined by interference. Remove the Mutants and the incident at the chasm, and Lion-O would still have won.
Trial 4 is where things get fishy. I agree with you, Tygra_Rules, that Tygra using his mind powers against the interfering Mutants is itself a form of interference. He is weakening himself, giving Lion-O an unfair advantage and potentially altering the outcome of the trial. How often does he do it?
Before the trial has started, he says, “I should conserve my energy from Lion-O’s trial, but…” He then proceeds to project that ice bridge that fools Jackalman and Monkian. But this is before the trial has started, so let’s give him a pass. Next, he drives the Mutants away by projecting a blizzard. But that same blizzard is a test for Lion-O, so, no harm no foul. Later on, though, Tygra explicitly projects an illusion for Slithe only (the ThunderCat signal) in order to protect Lion-O. He stops himself, remembering the rule, but it’s sort of too late—he’s already used mental energy to create that illusion, however small. Is it small enough to ignore? Maybe.
But on Lion-O’s side, the incident with Snowmeow is hard to reconcile. You could argue that Lion-O was only hanging from the cliff because of Slithe’s interference, and that he only turned back to retrieve his belt because of the Nosedivers’ interference, so the advatnage offered by Snowmeow’s aid is cancelled out. You could also argue that he could have rejected Snowmeow’s help on principle, and gotten to safety on his own. It’s a tough one, but I do fault him for it.
So Trial 4 may be a mistrial (ha!) on those grounds. But would Lion-O have failed to overcome Tygra’s final illusion—and his own fear—if he’d rejected Snowmeow’s aid, or if Tygra had conserved the mental energy he used against Slithe? I don’t think so. I think the strength of Tygra’s illusion was grounded in Lion-O’s fear, and Lion-O overcame it not because Tygra had been weakened, but because of his own mental fortitude and self-awareness. I think the outcome of the trial was unaffected. Should the ends justify the means? You’d have to ask Tygra. You’d also have to ask Tygra why he was allowed to give Lion-O that hint at the outset about facing his greatest fear. I agree, Tygra_Rules, that that offers Lion-O the ultimate advantage.
So, we can say the helps Lion-o recieved didn’t alter the trials outcome. I get that point and agree.
But Zax, you have pointed out three occasions in which the other TCs gave Lion-o an advantage (that we pointed out as well), a small if you want, but still an advantage.
[ol]
[li]Cheetara wating for him befora the 5-miles race; she could have gone ahead on her own, but decided to wait for him, knowing she could only keep her speed for 4 miles and there were 5 to run. Why she did that? We don’t know.[/li][li]Tygra’s warning at the start of the trial. I am convinced that if Tygra haven’t said anything about it, it’d have been harder for Lion-o to realize what was happening, overcome his trauma and pain, and thus Tygra’s illusion. Again, why did Tygra warn him? Who knows.[/li][li]Tygra projecting the TC signal to distract Slithe and getting weaker in the process. We do know why he did this: to protect Lion-o.[/li][/ol]We can say Cheetara waited for him because she wanted, and it’s not Lion’os fault, maybe she was overconfident in her speed; Lion-o even confronted her and told her she gave the race up, and she acted offended statuing she was forbidden by the Code… but by waiting for him, in some way she did, so the disqualidied one should have been her, not him
Same with Tygra, although I wouldn’t say he was overconfident because the first one was to warn Lion-o and the second one to help him directly. This last one might be the most questionable one.
So, even if no one was worthy of disqualification, I still think the honorable thing to do as an aspiring to Lord of the TCs would have been to declare both trials invalid lol (especially’s Tygra since Cheetara waited for him because she chose to do it and even after that she could have taken a 4 miles advantage over him; I’d say Lion-o won that one fairly, but I’m not sure about Tygra’s trial).
Yeah, I didn’t incude day 2 with Cheetara cause it wasn’t a case of Lion-O technically receiving personal aid (unlike his being pulled out of a cliff on days 3 and 4), Panthro was driving the mutants away from the grounds so Cheetara and Lion-O could compete fairly. And even when Cheetara pulls Lion-O into hiding, that seems to me to arguably be before the trial has really gotten underway, so that gets a pass with me, lol.
Yeah, he couldn’t accept help from anyone. In the speed trial he kept refusing help from Willa and her friend (like thezaxfactor said, to the point of rudeness; he could have at least yelled “I’m in an endurance trial and can’t accept help!”), so in those regards he also should have refused the Underearth Men’s help and Snow Meow’s help (unless one gives him a loophole with Snow Meow for “mutant interference”, if that would be the case).
Yeah, I wish the other ThunderCats could have driven them away instead of Tygra having to use up some of his powers. But then again, it’s pretty cool when Panthro goes “Wait! Look at Tygra!” and we see Tygra “at work” (though I don’t care for that mind power sound effect—it sounds too shrill and electrical for me, I wish it would have sounded more mystical, not technical).
Hmmm, that’s a curious statement…do you mind expanding on that?
Yeah, I thought of that too, that it took away from Tygra’s “supply” of mental energy for the trial.
Hmm, interesting…I didn’t think of that, since it was allowed, and Tygra, the most “rule-staunch” of the TCs, was the one who saying it. I just accepted that, lol. But yeah, that does seem odd enduring the Mind Power test is allowed to be told that.
Yeah, I think it’s just “in the rules” that nothing is allowed to interrupt or interfere with the trials, and that had probably never been put to the test before—certainly not to this extent, since the mutants never dwelled among the TCs in the past.
I can see that, and that’s a good reconciliation.
Yeah, after all, it’s putting her at a disadvantage, and it all needs to be fair. So in this case it’s more of a “keeping the trial going uninterrupted”, instead of someone receiving help.
I just realized an interesting point, though. Panthro tells Cheetara they’re not allowed to help her, just like no one’s allowed to help Lion-O, yet Lion-O can help the TCs he’s competing against, but they can’t help him.
I guess it depends on how you look at time. I always just assumed Cheetara had gotten there like a split second before Lion-O did. After all, the Code insists they try their best to defeat him.
Also, since her top speed only lasts around 2 miles, remember, none of us has any idea how long it takes her super speed to recharge. If she had been standing there for a few minutes (or more), perhaps she was resting to re-charge it up to use in the last 5 miles?
True. This is why I said I was playing devil’s advocate and posing these sorts of questions. Even though Lion-O accepted help, his competitors received equal help, and, after all, it was to save their lives so the trials could continue (although Lion-O almost ended the trials on the morning of day 1 when he nearly jumped into Acid Lake, disintegrating himself).
It would have been funny if the Underearth Men saved Kit and Kat but everyone left Lion-O just hanging there, lol.
Yeah, I give him a pass for that, I just hate that he’s already started to use his energy he’s been conserving for the time against Lion-O.
Yup…points well taken…it’s a tricky one, lol.
Good point. But why the fight at the end? The point of the trial was to endure Tygra’s mind powers and defeat his illusions. Does Lion-O attack him because it’s just an emotional reaction to seeing his greatest fear replayed in adulthood that he can’t help but attack Tygra for “making him relive that”? Does Tygra see it as his duty to physically stop Lion-O from reaching the ruins in the desert by fighting with him, after the shattering of his last illusion has wiped out his illusion powers, and that’s the only way to stop him? Although, since Tygra’s exhausted, he couldn’t have beaten Lion-O to the finishing mark on foot anyway.
Well apparently Lion-O didn’t technically know what his greatest fear was until he saw it, and he didn’t have time to analyze it and really prepare for it before he experienced it; maybe that’s what we viewers are supposed to think?
But he remembered Tygra’s words and that’s what made him realize it was an illusion adn be finally able to overcome it.
And yes, I think it was Tygra’s mission to prevent Lion-o getting to the ruins, so once the illusion was off, he tried to stop him however he could, even if he was weak.
Apparently, the only non-questionable trial was the one against Panthro, unless you count the rock that hit him in the shoulder as an external aid lol.
I love this thread, wish more people’d bring their 2 cents over here.
With respect to Tygra’s trial, I agree—more on that in a sec. In Cheetara’s case, Lion-O did accuse her of throwing the race, and she defended herself. In her mind, she did nothing wrong, and she gave him the insignia that she felt he earned. At that point, he can’t reject the insignia. He has believe her in good faith.
I like this. It rationalizes both her standing there and her defending herself.
Regarding Tygra’s trial, Lion-O wasn’t aware of the reason behind Slithe’s erratic flying. All he would know to apologize for is accepting help from Snowmeow. Even though it was Tygra’s decision to hand over the insignia, Lion-O should have owned up to that one incident.
That’s a great question. I don’t care for the fight, and I believe it’s been discussed in another thread. We don’t know what Lion-O was actually seeing during the fight, but you’ll notice that, until Tygra hits the ground, the background is still black, as if illusion were still active. Maybe in order to fully come out of the illusion, Lion-O had to physically subdue Tygra. But it’s weird, and I chalk it up more to a desire for a flashy animated squabble than to anything else.
I can’t speak for Tygra_Rules, but I share some of that sentiment. I’m sure that none of them were rooting against him, but Panthro was the only one we saw who was momentarily willing to break the rules and help Lion-O. I also feel like Panthro felt a more personal stake in Lion-O’s training. Cheetara might have been proud of him, the Kittens may have been impressed, and Tygra may have had the strongest faith in him; but Panthro (and Snarf) seem to have a stronger connection to Lion-O’s growth, and hence the strongest personal investment in his success. We saw Panthro training Lion-O in martial arts, we know he taught him to drive. If Snarf is the overprotective mother, Panthro is the taciturn-but-secretly-sappy father.
Yeah, this part of the tradition is what led me to my conclusion about the rules: that it’s really about unfair advantage. Elsewhere, it’s just about helping Lion-O, but here it becomes clear that they don’t want anything interfering in the contest. It doesn’t give Lion-O an unfair advantage to help his competitor, but the converse is not true. You’ll notice Panthro doesn’t complain when Lion-O relieves him of the would-be-wollo-squashing boulder!
Ha! Yes. You saved our books, so we’ll save your friends. See ya!
I’ve been thinking about this one all day. Why clue him in to the fact that one of today’s illusions will be his greatest fear? The best answer I can think of is that the clue that he’ll face his fear must not matter, or that telling him doesn’t help in the exercise. It’s not like he’s afraid of the dark, or of heights, or bats. If he were, then it would be a great mental exercise to force an illusion on him and see if he could resolve it for himself. “Wait a minute, these bats in the dark on this rollercoaster aren’t real! And I know that, not because you told me, but because I can see the truth despite my fear.”
Lion-O’s fear isn’t like that, and, moreover, that’s not the mental exercise that Tygra is aiming for. Lion-O’s fear is a very specific memory/nightmare, and, specifically, the way it makes him feel when he remembers/dreams it. If Tygra had not clued him in, he would have suddenly been flying through space, back to Thundera, to relive the past with no context. This is very clearly an illusion—he knows it can’t be real (unlike reasonably sized snowflakes and ruins that don’t appear on a map). He also already knows that he’s afraid of the nightmare, so it does little harm to tell him he’ll be facing it.
The breakthrough isn’t the moment when he realizes the illusion he’s seeing is his greatest fear. It’s the moment when he realizes that his greatest fear, this nightmare that’s been waking him up, is and has always been just an illusion. Memories, dreams, nightmares, have no impact on the present, so you don’t have to be afraid of them. Hakuna Matata. So, the clue (that your recurring nightmare is your greatest fear) doesn’t matter, because the breakthrough (that your recurring nightmare is always an inconsequential illusion) doesn’t require the clue.
About the first paragraph, yes, it’s pretty much that. But throughout the whole series, you see Panthro closer to Lion-o, and I think that bond was more evident during the trials. Tygra told the TCs before the very first trial that if Lion-o failed, then they all would have failed. For some reason, although I know Panthro understood that and knew that, he was rooting for him -ok, I guess all the TCs were rooting for him in some way- I don’t know how to explain it.
About the 2nd paragraph: I get what you say. But I also think it shows the greatness of a good leader to help his/her people in spite of personal purposes. I think that was a good lesson and also showed a quality of Lion-o that otherwise wouldn’t have been highlighted.
Paragraphs 3 to 5, yes, that makes sense, although I’ll have to think about it for a while lol. I’m still not sure that it wouldn’t have been harder for Lion-o to overcome it haven’t he got that warning. A nigtmare like that could’ve been brutal and turned him mad, sinking him in despair and frustration, and he might have had it hard to recover. Or maybe not.
Now, the other thing I’ve been thinking is what you guys have pointed out. He refused the Warrior Maidens’ help, but too the one the Underearth people and Snowmeow gave him. Weird.
Ha ha, he gets a pass on that one, lol. He had already “beaten” Panthro anyway, and was on the way to the Wolo (sp) village. But that’s funny though lol.
Yeah, I love really getting into character and continuity.
And boy, did she! Hell hath no fury like a cheetah woman accused of throwing a race! lol I always loved how she shot right back at Lion-O with furious indignation at his accusation.
Yeah, I always try to reconcile in my mind things that seem inconsistent or don’t have a given explanation.
Hmm, good points…
Again, good points. I could sense what you guys were thinking, I just hadn’t heard anyone specifically point out Panthro in this regard to Lion-O during the trials and it made me curious. Plus, Panthro was Lion-O’s first contest. So it’s kind of like once his (Panthro’s) day was over, he could focus all his strength and energy on cheering Lion-O on the rest of the week. Maybe even in some way he thought “If Lion-O could beat me, maybe he could very well beat us all”.
lol, true…though on one hand you could say the trial was over and Lion-O had already won, though if you’re a stickler you may say Lion-O technically hadn’t set foot in the Wolo (sp) village yet, the finishing target.
Yeah that’s kind of the feeling we get, since Tygra says “and I’m allowed to tell you this:”.
Yeah, when you get into a discussion like this it can be a lot to take in if you haven’t thought about it on deeper levels much before, lol.
Then again, if it were heading in that direction, Lion-O could have pumped himself up by telling him that this must be his greatest fear that Tygra warned him about, and that since he knew that, he can defeat it—it all depends on how you wanna look at it, lol.
And on the subject of the trials, I have to say, I always loved the structure of the Trial of Speed. Cheetara awakening in the tree at dawn ready to run, she and Lion-O discussing the course and the two different routes, each going their own separate preferred route, and especially the end: a true out-and-out race, running to their maximum in side-by-side paths, eventually lining up on each other’s side and going in for a “photo finish”, all while the other TCs are watching it “live” from the Cats’ Lair, as Lion-O and Cheetara are giving it all they’ve got, sprinting right beside each other as it ends…Third Earth’s version of the Kentucky Derby, lol…I just love it!
There’s still one point botheing me: Lion-o not taking Willa’s help, but having no problem with the Unerearth people and Snowmeow helping him. How do you guys explian it?
Also, anything in Mumm-Ra’s trial? I think Jaga appeared to him at the beginning and gave him some advice. Does that count as help?
Finally, I know that becaue of Lion-o himself annoiting the new TCs, they donj’t have a trial. But, if they got to challenge Lion-o, what do you think it would have been about? I think Pumyra’s trial could have been something about agility (maybe in Treetop Kingdom), and Lynxo maybe something that involves the five senses, but can’t think of anything for Bengali.
In the case of the Underearthers, Wilykat was holding onto Lion-O’s feet at that point, so they were both saved in that move.
Snowmeow - I’m not sure Lion-O had much of a choice, and it would have been difficult to explain to the snowcat that he wasn’t allowed to accept help.
As for Tygra’s distraction of Slithe with the Eye of Thundera symbol, I think the principle there was that Slithe was interfering with the trials, and that couldn’t be allowed.
As for Mumm-Ra’s trial - Jaga was going to suggest something, but Lion-O turned him down. I guess the moral of that was to trust your own judgements and not be dependent on others’ advice.
As for Lynx-O, Pumyra and Bengali’s hypothetical trials . . .
Lynx-O - The Trial Of Senses - Lion-O would have had to depend on his other senses, without the use of his eyes. He would probably have been somehow temporarily blinded.
Pumyra - probably something to do with the healing side of things.
Bengali - remembering he was a blacksmith, this trial would probably have been something akin to the classic (in both senses of the word) Star Trek episode “Arena”, where Captain Kirk found the ingredients of gunpowder and fashioned a primitive cannon.
One interesting point I find when comparing the original annointment trials to the remake version - in both cases, Tygra’s trial was the only one that there wasn’t a trick to. Which I guess is why Lion-O failed that trial in the remake (which was a great twist, I thought - and I’m convinced that if the series reaches its natural conclusion, in the very last episode, Lion-O and Tygra will have a rematch and Lion-O will finally ring that bell!)
About Tygra, I know you’re right. But I still think Panthro and Cheetara could have got there like they did in Cheetara’s trial and take charge of the Mutants so Tygra wouldn’t have to use his mind powers more than necessary (and get weak by doing so). As I see it, that might be one way from Panthro to help Lion-o, you know, something like “let’s leave Tygra take care of the Mutants so he gets tired and Lion-o has some advantage”. I know Panthro didn’t do it consicoulsy, but I believe in the unconscious lol (that’s something that also made me think Panthro was rooting for Lion-o more than the others, but maybe I’m reading too much into it).
About Jaga, I remember now, and you’re right.
Can you explain yourself better? As I see it, Tygra’s trial in the old series can be considered the “trickest” of all lol
But if he had been the same Lion-O who refused Willa’s help, in this case he could have insisted, “No! Don’t help me! Save Wily Kat and his sister, but I must save myself!” lol
Where was your independence then, Lion-O?
Whoa, sounds interesting! (I’ve never seen the new series)
Also, I see it being spelled “Slithe” here a lot, but remember, it’s Slythe, and, technically, “S-S-Slythe”, lol.
Well, I stand partially corrected…I just checked in my collection, and it is indeed spelled with an “i” in 2 hardback books I have, and the comics, but I’ 99% sure I’ve seen it spelled with a “y” on his original action figure package. That’s why I brought it up in the first place.
Being tricky and having a trick to it are two different things.
Case in point, in Cheetara’s trial, the trick was for Lion-O to take the shorter (but more dangerous) route - in both series, actually! The trick was to hitch a lift from the pterodactyls in the new series.
Similarly in Panthro’s trials, he proved himself stronger, but not by beating him in a fight - the trick was more in the remake here, he had to get him out of the circle, but not necessarily by physical means.
