Movie Club: Star Wars Episode VI Return Of The Jedi

[LiamABC]

WELCOME EVERYBODY TO THE RELAUNCHED DISCUSSION THREAD OF THE NEW MOVIE CLUB, DESIGNED TO RUN PARALLEL WITH R.O.C.K.S.
A big thanks to everyone that are joining us through all of this.

The next few weeks, Movie Club and ROCKS are doing a tie-in. Move Club we’re doing the original Star Wars trilogy, ROCKS will be focusing on a different animated Star Wars cartoon each week.

This week we’re doing episode 6, Return Of The Jedi

I understand that there are multiple versions of the original trilogy, due to George Lucas’ controversial decision to re-edit them. There is no restriction on which version you watch here. You can watch whichever version of it you choose.

Remember any ideas for films to discuss are most welcome, and should be made on the Movie Club Introduction thread (the sticky one).

Just a friendly reminder to everyone that, whilst fans are obviously welcome to passionately discuss and give their views on these episodes, please remember to keep things on a friendly footing and respect your fellow posters.
Also, please do not post where or how to find the full movie online. And do not post asking others to PM it to you. You are however allowed to watch the movie in whatever manner you want.

[Mark_M]

My favourite Star Wars film.
Seen this numerous times and all versions of it and all the deleted scenes.
First seen it when I was 3/4 years old and loved it. Didn’t get to see the other movies in the trilogy until late 94 when the re-mastered VHS films where released.

There was so many amazing scenes, I am really not sure if I could pic a favourite but I suppose if I had to pick one I will say Luke and Vader’s duel.
But I honestly love pretty much ever scene in the movie, from Han’s rescue, to Luke visiting Yoda, the Ewok encounter, the speeder chase and the brilliant space and land battles of Endor.

As far as the amazing soundtrack I love the music piece at the end with Luke and Vader on Endor as the Rebels’ celebration is starting.

One aspect about Lucas’ changes to the movie I dislike is the addition of Hayden Christiansen’s force ghost at the end in place of Sebastian Shaw. Sebastian Shaw will always be the Anakin I associate with film as I even had the toy of him.
I never had a lot of Star Wars figures when I was really young, just C-3PO, Han and Luke until about 95 when we were in Southern Ireland one day and in a small gift shop and discovered a small basket of some Star Wars figures all in the little plastic bags straight from the Kenner/Palitoy factory that had not been carded and I got The Emperor, The Rancor Keeper and Anakin Skywalker.
Of course with the re-launch of the Star Wars toys in the mid 90’s my collection of six Star Wars figures quickly multiplied in number.

[LiamABC]

What can I say? An epic conclusion to an epic trilogy.

Like Back To The Future, the third installment of this franchise is a lot closer to the first. It’s a sequence of scrapes building up to a massive battle at the end.

The opening stuff with Jabba the Hutt is curious, because half an hour in, we discover that Luke had planned for all of what had happened already, and uses his Jedi skills to good effect. I think this is also the best Carrie Fisher looked in the whole franchise - and I’d be saying that even without the “obvious” stuff, I just think this was the point when she was at her most beautiful, I was giving that extra “wow” on her first appearance in the film, where she’s almost completely covered up.

And on the subject of Leia, the realisation that they are twins works well. Luke somehow realises, and Leia realises too when he tells her without telling her directly. I guess they couldn’t do “I am your brother” after doing “I am your father” in the previous movie!

The scenes with Yoda are also well done. Luke goes back to finish his training, but Yoda is dying, and insists there is nothing more he can teach him, and nothing more Luke needs to know anyway.

Luke’s appeal to his father’s goodness is very well handled, and Vader’s death is very emotional. Partly because it means the end of the trilogy, but hey, nothing lasts forever!

And yes, this was the first time I’d seen it with Hayden Christiansen’s ghost replacing Sebastian Shaw. Bad move Lucas. I understand you wanted to make the prequels and the originals tie in better, but do that by making the prequels better in their own right, not by imposing them on the originals! OK, so HC was the good Anakin in his prime. But so what? Luke never knew him at that age, it was before he was born FFS! The face of the good Anakin he saw was Sebastian Shaw, and that’s the face that should have stayed. If you’re going to replace Shaw with Christiansen, why not go the whole hog and replace the ghost of Alec Guinness with Ewan McGregor? Because he wasn’t in the flaming film, that’s why not!

Still, that apart, like I said, this film was epic. Again!

[Mark_M]

@LiamABC

What can I say? An epic conclusion to an epic trilogy.

Like Back To The Future, the third installment of this franchise is a lot closer to the first. It’s a sequence of scrapes building up to a massive battle at the end.

The opening stuff with Jabba the Hutt is curious, because half an hour in, we discover that Luke had planned for all of what had happened already, and uses his Jedi skills to good effect. I think this is also the best Carrie Fisher looked in the whole franchise - and I’d be saying that even without the “obvious” stuff, I just think this was the point when she was at her most beautiful, I was giving that extra “wow” on her first appearance in the film, where she’s almost completely covered up.

And on the subject of Leia, the realisation that they are twins works well. Luke somehow realises, and Leia realises too when he tells her without telling her directly. I guess they couldn’t do “I am your brother” after doing “I am your father” in the previous movie!

The scenes with Yoda are also well done. Luke goes back to finish his training, but Yoda is dying, and insists there is nothing more he can teach him, and nothing more Luke needs to know anyway.

Luke’s appeal to his father’s goodness is very well handled, and Vader’s death is very emotional. Partly because it means the end of the trilogy, but hey, nothing lasts forever!

And yes, this was the first time I’d seen it with Hayden Christiansen’s ghost replacing Sebastian Shaw. Bad move Lucas. I understand you wanted to make the prequels and the originals tie in better, but do that by making the prequels better in their own right, not by imposing them on the originals! OK, so HC was the good Anakin in his prime. But so what? Luke never knew him at that age, it was before he was born FFS! The face of the good Anakin he saw was Sebastian Shaw, and that’s the face that should have stayed. If you’re going to replace Shaw with Christiansen, why not go the whole hog and replace the ghost of Alec Guinness with Ewan McGregor? Because he wasn’t in the flaming film, that’s why not!

Still, that apart, like I said, this film was epic. Again!

There was quite a few scenes cut from the film.
I think the best scene they cut was Luke constructing his new lightsaber. On a whole though I can understand why the scene was cut.
I do wish the scene with the Royal Guards drawing their weapons to stop Vader from entering the Emperopr’s chamber had been kept as it would have made them a lot cooler rather than just standing looking cool.
A lot of the other scenes that are cut would have really slowed the film down.

[LiamABC]

Reminds me of the director’s cut of Star Trek The Motion Picture compared with the original version. The original version was slow, lumbering, and was actually rush-released before the special effects had been finished, making it unclear what is going on in some scenes. The 2001 special edition fixed a lot of problems, trimmed about 12min off the film, cutting some clunky bits, and finally gave us properly finished effects. The result is a considerable improvement. OK, so the film is still a bit slow, and not a scratch on a patch on the sequels, but it’s at least watchable now. We’ll have to do the trilogy of Wrath Of Khan-Search For Spock-Voyage Home at some point on here.

[Mark_M]

@LiamABC

Reminds me of the director’s cut of Star Trek The Motion Picture compared with the original version. The original version was slow, lumbering, and was actually rush-released before the special effects had been finished, making it unclear what is going on in some scenes. The 2001 special edition fixed a lot of problems, trimmed about 12min off the film, cutting some clunky bits, and finally gave us properly finished effects. The result is a considerable improvement. OK, so the film is still a bit slow, and not a scratch on a patch on the sequels, but it’s at least watchable now. We’ll have to do the trilogy of Wrath Of Khan-Search For Spock-Voyage Home at some point on here.

Sounds good I haven’t seen any of those movies.

[Wilycub]

Like Mark, this is my favorite movie in the entire “Star Wars” franchise. Yes it is more light-hearted compared to the previous film, but I still love it, Ewoks and all!

This film concludes many of the things left uncertain in ESB. The Speed Biker chase is quite thrilling as is the whole rescue of Han. I guess the only part which I used to fast-forward through (back in the days of VHS) was the sequence after the Ewoks capture the heroes and take them to their village. I kinda found that a tad childish, even though I myself was a child at that time.

I’m not sure how many versions of this movie I have seen, but the one Lucas addition that I did not like is the “NOOOOOO!” scream by Vader and the one change that I loved was replacing the “Yub-Nub” end music with the “Victory Celebration”. I love that piece of music. It has a sense of celebration but at the same time it is very poignant. It suits the mood perfectly. The heroes are celebrating their victory over evil but at the same time mourning the loss of their comrades. A perfect finish to a perfect trilogy.

[Wilycub]

@LiamABC

If you’re going to replace Shaw with Christiansen, why not go the whole hog and replace the ghost of Alec Guinness with Ewan McGregor? Because he wasn’t in the flaming film, that’s why not!

A very good point, Liam! That was a totally unnecessary change. Shaw was fine as he was. He was an older Anakin and it’s not hard to imagine that the young Anakin (Christensen) looks like Shaw when he grows old. Why put a young Anakin as a ghost when he was evil at that time during his life? He only returned back to the good side in this movie, where he is an old man. Like you said, then why not put McGregor instead of Guinness? Because it would be ridiculous, just like putting in Christensen was ridiculous. The ghosts look like the character at the age when they die, not as their younger selves.

And the Christensen add-on wasn’t done well either. Guinness and Yoda are looking to their right (as was Shaw) but Christensen is looking straight at the camera.

[Mark_M]

@Wilycub

Like Mark, this is my favorite movie in the entire “Star Wars” franchise. Yes it is more light-hearted compared to the previous film, but I still love it, Ewoks and all!

This film concludes many of the things left uncertain in ESB. The Speed Biker chase is quite thrilling as is the whole rescue of Han. I guess the only part which I used to fast-forward through (back in the days of VHS) was the sequence after the Ewoks capture the heroes and take them to their village. I kinda found that a tad childish, even though I myself was a child at that time.

I’m not sure how many versions of this movie I have seen, but the one Lucas addition that I did not like is the “NOOOOOO!” scream by Vader and the one change that I loved was replacing the “Yub-Nub” end music with the “Victory Celebration”. I love that piece of music. It has a sense of celebration but at the same time it is very poignant. It suits the mood perfectly. The heroes are celebrating their victory over evil but at the same time mourning the loss of their comrades. A perfect finish to a perfect trilogy.

I personally always liked the Ewoks, although I can understand some peoples…resentment…towards them. But at least they weren’t Jar Jar/Gungans.
The thing about the Ewoks is they were the second choice.
The original plan was for Endor to be Kashyyyk the homeworld of the Wookiees. So we would he had seen Chewbacca back on his home world fighting alongside his people against the Empire. However one of two things prevented this from happening. Either visually could not visually capture the way Lucas’ wanted Kashyyyk to look or they could not get that many tall people to play wookiees/it was easier to get dwarfs and children.
As far as my Star Wars knowledge goes I believe the Ewoks are a distant relation to the Wookiees.
I was really pleased though that we got to see Kashyyyk and the Wookiees in Revenge of the Sith.

@Wilycub

A very good point, Liam! That was a totally unnecessary change. Shaw was fine as he was. He was an older Anakin and it’s not hard to imagine that the young Anakin (Christensen) looks like Shaw when he grows old. Why put a young Anakin as a ghost when he was evil at that time during his life? He only returned back to the good side in this movie, where he is an old man. Like you said, then why not put McGregor instead of Guinness? Because it would be ridiculous, just like putting in Christensen was ridiculous. The ghosts look like the character at the age when they die, not as their younger selves.

And the Christensen add-on wasn’t done well either. Guinness and Yoda are looking to their right (as was Shaw) but Christensen is looking straight at the camera.

You recall I said about a figure being made of every character from every scene. They made a figure of Christensen as the Anakin ghost. I am sure that was a really popular seller.

And yes they also made Sebastian Shaw, same with Yoda and Kenobi. I remember being quite tempted to get the Power of the Force 2 blue ghost set of Anakin, Ben and Yoda but since I had a Yoda and Ben, and a vintage Anakin I didn’t bother.

[Wilycub]

@Mark M

You recall I said about a figure being made of every character from every scene. They made a figure of Christensen as the Anakin ghost. I am sure that was a really popular seller.

Wow! You weren’t kidding. They really did make a figure of everything. I hope they didn’t make a figure of “Dead Ben Kenobi”, which would be just his cloak.

[Mark_M]

@Wilycub

Wow! You weren’t kidding. They really did make a figure of everything. I hope they didn’t make a figure of “Dead Ben Kenobi”, which would be just his cloak.

LOL. It wouldn’t surprise me if someone suggested that figure but I think some one in marketing probably had to draw the line at that idea.
I suppose since some figures of Obi-Wan came with a cloth robe they knew people could replicate that scene. Although I am surprised they didn’t market it as a free/bonus figure.
Mind you I suppose it would still be better than the ‘‘action figure’’ (accessory) Jakks released from the Rocky toyline of ‘The Meat’.

[Mark_M]

@Wilycub

Like Mark, this is my favorite movie in the entire “Star Wars” franchise. Yes it is more light-hearted compared to the previous film, but I still love it, Ewoks and all!

When you think about it the Ewoks were pretty clever, tough and brutal warriors.
When they capture Luke, Han and Chewie they were preparing to cook them for a feast.
During the big celebration at the end when the Ewoks are using the Imperial Trooper helmets as drums just think what happened to all those Imperial Troopers.

[LiamABC]

I’m thinking, and my thoughts are taking the form of a massive Ewok belch.

Actually, when Luke, Han and Chewie are captured, it reminded me of the first episode of “Defenders Of The Earth” when Flash, Mandrake and Lothar are looking for the Phantom and stumble into a trap.

[Mark_M]

@LiamABC

I’m thinking, and my thoughts are taking the form of a massive Ewok belch.

Actually, when Luke, Han and Chewie are captured, it reminded me of the first episode of “Defenders Of The Earth” when Flash, Mandrake and Lothar are looking for the Phantom and stumble into a trap.

I forgot about that bit in DOTE.

Regarding the Ewoks cartoon. The first season is the best, especially all the Paul Dini episodes, Bob Carrou’s not so much. The second season is nowhere near as good although the second season Dini episode Battle for the Sunstar is quite good and ties in to how the Emperor decides to use Endor for the construction site of the Death Star.

[The_Drifter]

Huge SW fan since SW: ANH made it’s debut back in '77. I was in first grade when the movie was released, so IMHO was the exact age group the film was being marketed towards/for.

By the time ROTJ rolled around, I was in my early teens & though I was still a huge fan of the movies, by that time I watched films with a more critical eye. And, I definitely felt that - while ROTJ had some great elements - it was the weakest of all the original films. I felt this even back in '83, prior to these movies being analyzed ad naseum - in print & online, etc.

IMHO, ROTJ’s two biggest problems were:

-The Ewoks - or rather, the way the Ewoks were presented. If they hadn’t been cute, cuddly teddy bears we could have taken them a lot more seriously. Lucas could have improved these characters by either:

1)Making them a lot more sinister looking, and not cute…or, even better…
2) Using Wookies instead of Ewoks - this would have added drama to the film & the Wookies would have been taken a lot more seriously…and almost certainly done a lot more damage to the Imperials during the forest battle. In fact, I think an early script for ROTJ used Wookies instead of Ewoks - too bad they didn’t stick with this.

-Han Solo had too many comedic lines & scenes, which to me just made the character look foolish. Yes, he had some witty lines in ANH & ESB, but not as many. They could have removed some of these from ROTJ & the film would have been improved.

That being said, ROTJ had a lot of great elements as well:

-The entire Jabba’s Palace & Sarlaac pit/Skiff fight were great, from beginning to end (note I’m referrring to the '83 original film, not the 1997 Special edition - which messed these scenes up to some extent).

-Excellent lightsaber battle between Luke & Vader.

-Darth Vader/Anakin’s redemption was very poignant & powerful. I.e., when he saved Luke from Palpatine & killed Palpatine by throwing him down the exhaust pit - wow. Great stuff here, and one of the best scenes in all three films.

-Very poignant final scene(s) with Luke burning his father’s body on a funeral pier, and then shortly after seeing the ghosts of Yoda, Obi-wan, and his Father proudly looking on him with approval. Note this was ruined by the later 2004 DVD release re: having a young Anakin replace the older one - but that’s another thread.